IDA Worst Zoos For Elephants 2017

Ok instead of saying people are a “crock of s***” and arguing over profile names, why don’t you actually give examples as to why you disagree rather than telling people to visit 10 plus institutions (which isn’t feasable for many). I don’t believe you need to go to every place that has elephants and talk to their keepers in order to have an opinion on the state of their exhibit. Especially for the institutions like St. Louis, Omaha, and Oregon, the quality of care has not been questioned by this community.
 
Realistically, I don’t think the IDA actually has a top 10 best zoos for elephants. If you read through their opening statement before the top 10 worst begins, they are very critical of elephants in any sort of captivity.

That being said I think this gets to the larger problem with most current zoos today. Are they giving the animals in their care enough space to roam, is their enough enrichment for them, if the zoo is in a climate that’s drastically different then the species originated from is there something that provides the shelter that may be needed, and lastly are they getting the best health care. There may be other things added to that list but I think it comes down to it, with the money and effort that goes into making these animals ambassadors to their wild counter parts, are we looking at money over over creating a good life for the ambassadors versus are we using our well resources to protect the wild.
 
In my opinion, while we should never stop trying to improve animal care, I feel that at least some of these activists should try to focus more on conservation. I really don’t like listening to them saying that zoos are using conservation as an excuse while they do nothing. Now don’t get me wrong, there are definitely some good animal activists out there that contribute to both issues. But if you simply preach and don’t offer a good alternative your opinion will likely not be considered. As long as IDA does not offer a good alternative they will not have my respect.
 
Does IDA actually have any renowned elephant scientists who know about the physiological makeup of elephants as well as the facilities needed to take care of them? Or are they just nothing more than fanatical animal rights activists? I'm sure they'd find some way to complain about North Carolina's gorgeous facility, or better yet Dallas. (They praised the facility but put them on last year's list for the whole Swaziland debacle)
 
I've only seen Milwaukee's exhibit and that's all I judge after. I have been to 15 zoos/aquariums, only a third of those have elephants. I've seen the good (San Diego Zoo Safari Park), the bad (Milwaukee County Zoo) and the ugly (San Diego Zoo). It may not meet your standard of being to every zoo on the list, by I can still have an opinion on what I believe is good and bad. I even said I would take an educated zoochatter word over PETA, The IDA or any other group any day.
 
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How about Jacksonville? Although the zoo does have enclosures for their elephants, including two holding yards, the public viewing area and the barn I think that the zoo should do more. A good example would be greatly trimming the trees/shrubs next to the ramp that lead up to the giraffes so you can see Ali a lot easier when he's in the holding yards. Oh and thanks for saying that I'm an educated Zoochatter @pachyderm pro. I do as much research as I can given the circumstances regarding limited access to zoo/circus records available online. Also I think that Packy should have been professionally mounted like Siam but perhaps his TB prevented that possibility. He was buried in an elephant graveyard and there was a very specific planned procedure for his burial. At least the Oregon Zoo seems to plan on having a life sized 3D image of him in Elephant Lands so visitors can still "see" him. I always wanted to get up to the Oregon Zoo to see Packy and Tusko but never got the chance.
 
Just to stir the pot a bit... There's strong evidence that welfare assessments by human observers with minimal training can generate results congruent with conventional stress indicators. This avenue of research, known as Qualitative Welfare Assessment (QBA), was introduced by Prof. Francoise Wemelsfelder and has been validated for a range of species. ZooChatters who state that visitors have no valid contribution to the animal welfare debate would do well to explore the literature on this topic.

More pertinently, however, Wemelsfelder has carried out one (unpublished) study surveying public perceptions of elephant welfare. Participants watched clips of animals in zoos and the wild. Without being told which they were shown or the true purpose of the study, Wemelsfelder found that response words such as "bored" and "lazy" clustered around captive elephants, whilst more active, positive words were associated with wild ones.

My point is not that this is an indictment of elephant husbandry in zoos, but that dismissing untrained observers out-of-hand isn't an evidence-based approach either. Clearly keepers working with elephants have biases just as strong and systematic as the animal rights brigade. Furthermore, sustained criticism from the antis has often been a major impetus for positive change, although many in the zoo industry (and on this site) are loath to admit it.

However, as most have already pointed out, the indiscriminate nature of IDA's list isn't meant to engender improvements to elephant welfare, but an end to elephants in zoos. That's not based on any form of evidence. Nor would IDA's propagandists accept any that doesn't conform to their existing viewpoint. That makes this list a waste of time.
 
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There's strong evidence that welfare assessments by human observers with minimal training can generate results congruent with conventional stress indicators. (...) Wemelsfelder has carried out one (unpublished) study surveying public perceptions of elephant welfare.

This evidence was evidently not strong, because it was not published.

You seem to dismiss the evidence of experienced elephant keepers in favor of laymen.

Which laymen themselves are in strong conflict of interest, because campaigning about elephants provides more funds than campaigning about homeless dogs and cats.

Furthermore, sustained criticism from the antis has often been a major impetus for positive change

Zoos started breeding elephants, researching causes of premature mortality and modernizing exhibits years before 'antis' jumped into bandwagon. One can see it easily by comparing years of zoo publications, zoo breeding with dates of major campaigns to move elephants out of zoos.

Furthermore, fighting misinformation of anti-zoo activists shifts resources from actually helping elephants.

Besides, many proposals of anti-zoo activists are misinformed and hamper elephant welfare. For example, stopping breeding of elephants which causes degeneration of females' reproductive tracts and denies them from inherent part of their normal behavior - raising calves. Or moving elephants to new places where they are dumped with individuals they don't know nor relate too, and must be then again isolated in a new place. So 'rescuing' elephant from a 'bad' solitary life in a zoo results in equally solitary life in a 'sanctuary'.

These problems caused by ignorant activists to elephants which they claim to 'help' are quite similar to harm to animals caused by similar activists 'helping' other species in past years, now shifted to elephants.

There is little evidence that noisy campaigns against zoo elephants have any additional benefit to elephants themselves over what zoos would do anyway. Unlike how these activist organizations justify spending their funds.
 
@Jurek7: It would be nice if you could read my posts, rather than misrepresent them.

This evidence was evidently not strong, because it was not published.

You have no idea how strong this evidence was, because it was not published. Nor why it wasn't published. Nor whether it will be.

That aside, I don't think I could have been any clearer that this is a nascent avenue of research...
My point is not that this is an indictment of elephant husbandry in zoos, but that dismissing untrained observers out-of-hand isn't an evidence-based approach either.


You seem to dismiss the evidence of experienced elephant keepers in favor of laymen.

IDA aside, I didn't "dismiss" anyone. I made the point that minimally trained observers can provide important insights into animal welfare and that there are biases on both sides. Both are true. Neither had been previously recognised by contributors to this thread.

Zoos started breeding elephants, researching causes of premature mortality and modernizing exhibits years before 'antis' jumped into bandwagon. One can see it easily by comparing years of zoo publications, zoo breeding with dates of major campaigns to move elephants out of zoos.

Furthermore, fighting misinformation of anti-zoo activists shifts resources from actually helping elephants.

Besides, many proposals of anti-zoo activists are misinformed and hamper elephant welfare. For example, stopping breeding of elephants which causes degeneration of females' reproductive tracts and denies them from inherent part of their normal behavior - raising calves. Or moving elephants to new places where they are dumped with individuals they don't know nor relate too, and must be then again isolated in a new place. So 'rescuing' elephant from a 'bad' solitary life in a zoo results in equally solitary life in a 'sanctuary'.

These problems caused by ignorant activists to elephants which they claim to 'help' are quite similar to harm to animals caused by similar activists 'helping' other species in past years, now shifted to elephants.

There is little evidence that noisy campaigns against zoo elephants have any additional benefit to elephants themselves over what zoos would do anyway. Unlike how these activist organizations justify spending their funds.

Again, if you actually read my post, I don't (wholly) disagree. I pointed out that protest movements can facilitate improvements; not that they always do. Especially in recent years, the zoo industry (and AZA in particular) have really taken the initiative on this issue, which we should absolutely commend them for. I nonetheless believe that campaigns against poor standards can and should play a role. There is no reason why that shouldn't include bottom-up calls from zoo visitors. Again as I pointed out, IDA's a priori anti-captivity stance means that neither it nor its list make a helpful contribution.
 
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