Well this was going to happen sooner or later.
10 Worst Zoos for Elephants 2019
What do you all think?
10 Worst Zoos for Elephants 2019
What do you all think?
IDA Worst Zoos for Elephants 2019
- Thread starter iluvwhales
- Start date
Yi Qi
Well-Known Member
Ugh, all the propaganda's on display. Saying they were ripped from the wild and are trapped? Check. Saying zoos only care about money and breeding programs exist solely for it? Check. Implying elephants sent and ripped apart from zoo to zoo with no preparation? Check. Seriously, its all the same dreck, and we'll refute them with the same arguments every year.
Anyway, here's a list for those who wisely stay to the facts and avoid the bull:
1. Pittsburgh Zoo
2. Zoo Miami
3. Bronx Zoo
4. Oregon Zoo
5. Louisville Zoo
6. Natural Bridge Zoo*
7. Edmonton Valley Zoo
8. Utah's Hogle Zoo
9. San Diego Zoo Safari Park
10. Rosamond Gifford Zoo (!?)
Dishonorable Mention: Roger Williams Park Zoo
*The only "zoo" I agree should be on the list
Anyway, here's a list for those who wisely stay to the facts and avoid the bull:
1. Pittsburgh Zoo
2. Zoo Miami
3. Bronx Zoo
4. Oregon Zoo
5. Louisville Zoo
6. Natural Bridge Zoo*
7. Edmonton Valley Zoo
8. Utah's Hogle Zoo
9. San Diego Zoo Safari Park
10. Rosamond Gifford Zoo (!?)
Dishonorable Mention: Roger Williams Park Zoo
*The only "zoo" I agree should be on the list
I almost forgot about these guys...
So, admittedly there are a handful of zoos that perhaps do deserve some grief for their elephant exhibits and management. Pittsburgh has certainly had a rather messy history with elephant in recent years and losing their accreditation from the AZA because of it wasn't a great look. I haven't been there in person so I can't fully judge the exhibit, but it doesn't look awful from what I've seen even if the barn leaves a lot to be desired.
Bronx has been put in a difficult place purely over circumstances they cannot control. Oregon had a tragic incident that again was out of the zoos control. Louisville's exhibit may be rather underwhelming, but I can at least admire their success with the recent birth. Miami was a big surprise, as I have always noticed they have been perhaps the one major zoo with elephants that has avoided this list. San Diego was also surprise, but it seems like their issues didn't lie in the exhibit itself, rather the management of the elephant owned by the SDZ Global - you know, doing actual conservation work. Don't know enough about Hogle or Edmonton Valley, though I will say I am shocked Lucy at Edmonton is still alive.
Out of all of them, Rosamond Gifford was easily the most ridiculous. Their main argument was that a male elephant calf was sent elsewhere in 2014 at the "tender age of six." A quick google search disproves this entirely. Additionally, Doc - the zoos bull - is apparently being sent to another zoo soon and is being "separated from his family." If the IDA are such elephant experts (or pachyderm pros
) they should now that male elephant will leave the herd and won't stick to the same family group their whole lives. So this argument is basically a whole lot of nothing.
All these lists over the years prove is how uneducated these people are about what they're talking about. They have described normal elephant behaviors as negative traits that indicate they are "suffering" numerous times, have done absolutely nothing to support wild elephant conservation and when zoos do just that they have a problem with it - just look at the 2016 Dallas, Omaha, Sedgwick County (Three of the best elephant exhibits in the country may I add) Import from Swaziland. Those animals were going to be killed, but those zoos stepped in. The constant use of anthropomorphism such as comparing artificial insemination to rape and assuming an elephant touching a fence means its trying to escape delegitimize much of what these people are saying, and in the long run this list isn't going to do much of anything. I can least give the benefit of the doubt that all the listed zoos are doing actual work for elephant conservation.
(except the natural bridge zoo, that place looks like a hellhole...)
So, admittedly there are a handful of zoos that perhaps do deserve some grief for their elephant exhibits and management. Pittsburgh has certainly had a rather messy history with elephant in recent years and losing their accreditation from the AZA because of it wasn't a great look. I haven't been there in person so I can't fully judge the exhibit, but it doesn't look awful from what I've seen even if the barn leaves a lot to be desired.
Bronx has been put in a difficult place purely over circumstances they cannot control. Oregon had a tragic incident that again was out of the zoos control. Louisville's exhibit may be rather underwhelming, but I can at least admire their success with the recent birth. Miami was a big surprise, as I have always noticed they have been perhaps the one major zoo with elephants that has avoided this list. San Diego was also surprise, but it seems like their issues didn't lie in the exhibit itself, rather the management of the elephant owned by the SDZ Global - you know, doing actual conservation work. Don't know enough about Hogle or Edmonton Valley, though I will say I am shocked Lucy at Edmonton is still alive.
Out of all of them, Rosamond Gifford was easily the most ridiculous. Their main argument was that a male elephant calf was sent elsewhere in 2014 at the "tender age of six." A quick google search disproves this entirely. Additionally, Doc - the zoos bull - is apparently being sent to another zoo soon and is being "separated from his family." If the IDA are such elephant experts (or pachyderm pros
) they should now that male elephant will leave the herd and won't stick to the same family group their whole lives. So this argument is basically a whole lot of nothing.All these lists over the years prove is how uneducated these people are about what they're talking about. They have described normal elephant behaviors as negative traits that indicate they are "suffering" numerous times, have done absolutely nothing to support wild elephant conservation and when zoos do just that they have a problem with it - just look at the 2016 Dallas, Omaha, Sedgwick County (Three of the best elephant exhibits in the country may I add) Import from Swaziland. Those animals were going to be killed, but those zoos stepped in. The constant use of anthropomorphism such as comparing artificial insemination to rape and assuming an elephant touching a fence means its trying to escape delegitimize much of what these people are saying, and in the long run this list isn't going to do much of anything. I can least give the benefit of the doubt that all the listed zoos are doing actual work for elephant conservation.
(except the natural bridge zoo, that place looks like a hellhole...)
Interestingly, the Rosamond Gifford Zoo responded. Apparently, there are no plans to send away their bull despite what was "overheard" by an IDA employee, discrediting the entire argument against the zoo in the first place.
Syracuse zoo responds to landing on worst 10 elephant zoos list
Syracuse zoo responds to landing on worst 10 elephant zoos list
I'm a bit scared to reply to this thread, but here we go.
I honestly want to put it like this, just because I love zoos doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. Take this way, I might metaphorically like the Green Bay Packers, (Just the first team I could think of since I'm not into football.) but if the Packers make a bad play, I'm going to be a little frustrated. I agree with Yi Qi that some of this information is false, but some decisions by the zoos were a little, eh. For example I really don't think Edmonton should keep a lonely elephant in the cold, since they are incredibly social and from tropical Asia. I am not bashing these zoos saying their bad (Except for Natural Bridge) as I know the programs they have for their other animals is incredible. I'm just saying that not all zoos have the means to hold elephants. (space, money, ect.) There defiantly is lots of bull in this list, but some zoos just have pretty bad elephant programs, and that doesn't mean thought that they're a terrible zoo.
I honestly want to put it like this, just because I love zoos doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. Take this way, I might metaphorically like the Green Bay Packers, (Just the first team I could think of since I'm not into football.) but if the Packers make a bad play, I'm going to be a little frustrated. I agree with Yi Qi that some of this information is false, but some decisions by the zoos were a little, eh. For example I really don't think Edmonton should keep a lonely elephant in the cold, since they are incredibly social and from tropical Asia. I am not bashing these zoos saying their bad (Except for Natural Bridge) as I know the programs they have for their other animals is incredible. I'm just saying that not all zoos have the means to hold elephants. (space, money, ect.) There defiantly is lots of bull in this list, but some zoos just have pretty bad elephant programs, and that doesn't mean thought that they're a terrible zoo.
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I would just like to add too that the "animal activists" who wanted them back in the wild are applying they want the elephants dead then in captive care so...
Yi Qi
Well-Known Member
Lucy's an Asian elephant, not an African. They have been documented in pretty frigid conditions in the Himalayas (if during the summer, but still).
Oh I'm stupid. I meant Asia. Sometimes my thoughts run faster than my words. It has been fixed and thanks for pointing it out
I'm sure I'm not knowledgeable enough to confirm or deny the contents of the list, but they sure sound overblown, at least to some degree. I'd love in-depth breakdowns of what the lists get right and wrong and what's stretching the truth for laymen who, for all they know, IDA is completely telling the truth. The Rosamund Gifford Zoo's response it helpful, but I know I'd appreciate more exhaustive explanations, not just for this list, but for others. Am I right in saying that some of the sudden, frequent deaths mentioned by the list are caused by EEHV and not necessarily something the zoo can control?
And it’s the fault of people like this why we don’t really see elephants in American zoos these days.
It’s not like anyone can improve or expand the exhibits or anything.
It’s not like anyone can improve or expand the exhibits or anything.
I hav to say that most zoos on this list totally deserve it, and I just hope this will put some pressure on them to change things.
1. Pittsburgh Zoo - very poor indoor housing while having cold winters; horrible mangement decisions (using dogs which the USDA cited them for, refusing to change to pc); wasting the breeding potential of their home-born female Victoria (now 21 years old and still nulliparous, so almost zero chance of her ever having a calf); seperating female Moja from her two daughters, who - like Victoria - have no chance for breeding and I see their potenial being wasted too.
That the IDA makes a big things out of Seeni,Sukiri and Thandi being seperated seems misled; unrelated female elephants who have lived many years together are not necessarly bonded and often enough hate each other. IDA doesn`t seem to know if these three are actually bonded (I neither). Chances are good they aren`t. They may actually be happy to get away from each other and get the possibility to make friends with others. I
2. Zoo Miami - they totally deserve a shitstorm for letting things get out of hand and not acting earlier after Peggy attacked Cita the first times. Agression between unrelated female african elephants is not rare and can get serious, but rarely ever occurs without warning, and if the zoo staff doesn`t react, it is totally their fault.
3. Bronx Zoo - they should have sent their elephants elsewhere years ago. They are barely on show (and not at all during the winter months), both indoors and outdoors are very small, and keeping two elephants seperated from each other because they don`t get along must not be a permanent situation. Move them elsewhere where they have more space and can meet other elephants. Chances are good that both would bond with other females if given the possibilty!!! Don`t let them die all alone!
4. Oregon Zoo - Chendra was way too old for a first calf when she got pregnant. That decision was a really bad one and caused her a lot of pain, actually.
5. Louisville Zoo - seriuosly, what is Mikki still doing there??? They have no space for a bull, nor for a family group, and Mikki is a breeding female who needs to live in a zoo that has a bull and can house her and her future daugthers (which she will most likely not have at Louisville since AI is too expensive and requires too much efforts). I am pretty sure their enclosure is so small that neither elephant should live there, and certainly not a young calf who will grow up in social isolation without ever having the possibility to play with other young elephants, or learning how to be a bull elephant from a mature bull as role model.
6. Natural Bridge Zoo - no words, I think we all agree they are horrible.
7. Edmonton Valley Zoo - no words, horrible conditions for Lucy. She might be too sick to be moved now, but the debate is ongoing since many years, and I totally blame the zoo for not acting many, many years earlier.
8. Utah's Hogle Zoo - what are Christie and Zuri still doing there???? Same as Louisville Zoo. From what I have seen they don`t have the space for elephants, and certainly not for a family group and a bull. Christie should have more calves, and Zuri should be pregnant by now, but all they do is waste their potential to have a family. and brings the US zoos closer to another import of elephants from Africa.
9. San Diego Zoo Safari Park - the stuff they write about the bulls is seriously wrong.
10. Rosamond Gifford Zoo - same as San Diego Zoo, but I do have management concerns regarding this zoo.
Dishonorable Mention: Roger Williams Park Zoo - I don`t know enough about this place to write an educated comment.
1. Pittsburgh Zoo - very poor indoor housing while having cold winters; horrible mangement decisions (using dogs which the USDA cited them for, refusing to change to pc); wasting the breeding potential of their home-born female Victoria (now 21 years old and still nulliparous, so almost zero chance of her ever having a calf); seperating female Moja from her two daughters, who - like Victoria - have no chance for breeding and I see their potenial being wasted too.
That the IDA makes a big things out of Seeni,Sukiri and Thandi being seperated seems misled; unrelated female elephants who have lived many years together are not necessarly bonded and often enough hate each other. IDA doesn`t seem to know if these three are actually bonded (I neither). Chances are good they aren`t. They may actually be happy to get away from each other and get the possibility to make friends with others. I
2. Zoo Miami - they totally deserve a shitstorm for letting things get out of hand and not acting earlier after Peggy attacked Cita the first times. Agression between unrelated female african elephants is not rare and can get serious, but rarely ever occurs without warning, and if the zoo staff doesn`t react, it is totally their fault.
3. Bronx Zoo - they should have sent their elephants elsewhere years ago. They are barely on show (and not at all during the winter months), both indoors and outdoors are very small, and keeping two elephants seperated from each other because they don`t get along must not be a permanent situation. Move them elsewhere where they have more space and can meet other elephants. Chances are good that both would bond with other females if given the possibilty!!! Don`t let them die all alone!
4. Oregon Zoo - Chendra was way too old for a first calf when she got pregnant. That decision was a really bad one and caused her a lot of pain, actually.
5. Louisville Zoo - seriuosly, what is Mikki still doing there??? They have no space for a bull, nor for a family group, and Mikki is a breeding female who needs to live in a zoo that has a bull and can house her and her future daugthers (which she will most likely not have at Louisville since AI is too expensive and requires too much efforts). I am pretty sure their enclosure is so small that neither elephant should live there, and certainly not a young calf who will grow up in social isolation without ever having the possibility to play with other young elephants, or learning how to be a bull elephant from a mature bull as role model.
6. Natural Bridge Zoo - no words, I think we all agree they are horrible.
7. Edmonton Valley Zoo - no words, horrible conditions for Lucy. She might be too sick to be moved now, but the debate is ongoing since many years, and I totally blame the zoo for not acting many, many years earlier.
8. Utah's Hogle Zoo - what are Christie and Zuri still doing there???? Same as Louisville Zoo. From what I have seen they don`t have the space for elephants, and certainly not for a family group and a bull. Christie should have more calves, and Zuri should be pregnant by now, but all they do is waste their potential to have a family. and brings the US zoos closer to another import of elephants from Africa.
9. San Diego Zoo Safari Park - the stuff they write about the bulls is seriously wrong.
10. Rosamond Gifford Zoo - same as San Diego Zoo, but I do have management concerns regarding this zoo.
Dishonorable Mention: Roger Williams Park Zoo - I don`t know enough about this place to write an educated comment.
