Iguanas in Australia

[MRJ]

Firstly let me say I am not here to answer for the Australian exotic zoo industry, in which I have zero involvement, minuscule influence, and little interest. I did care once but I find that as you get older you have trim back what you care about or you risk not being able to affect change in areas that really matter to you. I do have an interest in what zoos can do for conservation and from that perspective I am happy to comment.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, yes there are thousands of species which are endangered with no one suggesting all can be saved,

Which it is why it is important that zoos focus on species where they can make a difference, and not use conservation as green wash to cover keeping just any species they fancy at the moment. Conservation breeding is an expensive and complex process.

but you seem to brush passed the point of the two species that I had mentioned, the Snow Leopard and the Sun Bear both of these animals species were chosen by the regional zoos as the species of interest above others for the regions zoos, My point of which you seem to just brush passed is there appears to be little to no long term commitment for them. If these are what the zoos want thats fine but then one stands by them long term and here lies the problem.

Not brushed over, just ignored. I have no idea why these two species have been dropped. It could be husbandry issues, maybe snow leopards are not partial to our climates and maybe our city zoos realized they do not have the room the denning enclosures female sun bears require. Or maybe the zoos decided they would not be getting the conservation or commercial outcomes they expected.

And again no one is suggesting that if someone like Melbourne zoo drop Maned wolfs the public will stop coming its obvious one or two zoos cant carry all the needed animals of the said species alone, they need to be in a number of zoos working on a breeding program as you very well know.

Indeed you are right, and that is the reason the species pretty much disappeared at the time. The main zoos had agreed to drop the Americas and concentrate on Asia and to a lesser extent Africa. However the zoo scene has changed significantly since then, with many more exotics in private zoos. The maned wolf is an excellent species for small zoos being noticeable and exotic looking, while at the same time not being expensive to look after and not being too dangerous.

The other point which you brush passed as I have mentioned before is management of that said species like as mentioned with the Zebra, while many zoos within our region hold them they are quite inbred, which is something the major zoos should have addressed long ago but did not, No new bloodlines have been imported for many years by any of the major zoos that I know of so in my view they could have and should have done better than this?, As many would be aware it took two small regional zoos to import from the USA ten Zebra only a few years ago at great cost with the biggest import of Zebra in modern times if I am correct, So in my view if two small zoos can do this why has it not been done by the major zoos here?, why let them become so badly inbred?, Do you not agree they could have done better?.

You assume I actually care if there are zebras in Australian zoos or not, which I don't. I do think that zebras are an extraordinarily popular ABC exhibit and major zoo managers would be stupid if they did let them go extinct in zoos. For that reason I am sure they will make commercial decisions to ensure that they do not loose zebras from their zoos, what they do is up to them. As for the two regional zoos importing zebras, obviously they have also made a commercial decision and I hope it has worked for them.

 

[Zorro]

Firstly let me say I am not here to answer for the Australian exotic zoo industry, in which I have zero involvement, minuscule influence, and little interest. I did care once but I find that as you get older you have trim back what you care about or you risk not being able to affect change in areas that really matter to you. I do have an interest in what zoos can do for conservation and from that perspective I am happy to comment.


Which it is why it is important that zoos focus on species where they can make a difference, and not use conservation as green wash to cover keeping just any species they fancy at the moment. Conservation breeding is an expensive and complex process.


Not brushed over, just ignored. I have no idea why these two species have been dropped. It could be husbandry issues, maybe snow leopards are not partial to our climates and maybe our city zoos realized they do not have the room the denning enclosures female sun bears require. Or maybe the zoos decided they would not be getting the conservation or commercial outcomes they expected.


Indeed you are right, and that is the reason the species pretty much disappeared at the time. The main zoos had agreed to drop the Americas and concentrate on Asia and to a lesser extent Africa. However the zoo scene has changed significantly since then, with many more exotics in private zoos. The maned wolf is an excellent species for small zoos being noticeable and exotic looking, while at the same time not being expensive to look after and not being too dangerous.


You assume I actually care if there are zebras in Australian zoos or not, which I don't. I do think that zebras are an extraordinarily popular ABC exhibit and major zoo managers would be stupid if they did let them go extinct in zoos. For that reason I am sure they will make commercial decisions to ensure that they do not loose zebras from their zoos, what they do is up to them. As for the two regional zoos importing zebras, obviously they have also made a commercial decision and I hope it has worked for them.

If you have so little interest in Exotics why were you the one to jump on the breeding of the Green Iguanas by a zoo that has a big interest in Exotics? Also as you stated above you dont care if Zebras (Exotic) are in the regions zoos or not. So I would not expect you to reply to any further comments about any exotics on the forum in any of my posts. Further more its my understanding that the Green Iguana are NOT to be phased out of the regions collections and I believe there has been 32 spaces have been allowed for them to recover so PLEASE try to stay up to date with this subject or just dont comment at all on something that you know nothing about

 

[tetrapod]

So which current programs would you be happy to phase out to allow for spaces for these iguanas? It's not as if a bunch of unknown lizards would be huge crowd pullers.

I definitely agree that crowds are unlikely to flock to see an endangered iguana or three. But as has been pointed out regional collection planning when it comes to many exotics have been stuck in a rut, which dates back several decades. It was intensely frustrating when working in the industry, let alone as an interested bystander, to see species phased out, given little attention and interest flip-flopped year after year. I won't go into the list of species as it has been repeated ad nauseum on ZC.
If we return to the iguanas, exactly which exotic reptiles are part of current co-ordinated breeding programs in Australian zoos? I bet the Fijian iguanas are probably about it. Most of the other species currently held are common enough in the wild or easily available in exotic herp pet trade outside Australia. Some species which might generate some interest like rhino iggys and radiated tortoises have just held on by a handful of collections and sporadically bred. Are you honestly saying that Australian zoos could not accomodate breeding programs for half a dozen exotic herps?
As I stated before I couldn't care less if green iguanas stayed in Australian zoos, but at least suitable alternatives need to be found. I notice that bloody corn snakes seem to have become a popular reptile in collections. They are the number 1 beginner's snake with private keepers outside Australia. This is not the direction that Australian zoos should be headed.

 

[Zorro]

Very well put @tetrapod I agree 100%

 

[MRJ]

If you have so little interest in Exotics why were you the one to jump on the breeding of the Green Iguanas by a zoo that has a big interest in Exotics? Also as you stated above you dont care if Zebras (Exotic) are in the regions zoos or not. So I would not expect you to reply to any further comments about any exotics on the forum in any of my posts.

Life can be full of disappointments and I'm guessing this will become one of yours.

Further more its my understanding that the Green Iguana are NOT to be phased out of the regions collections and I believe there has been 32 spaces have been allowed for them to recover so PLEASE try to stay up to date with this subject or just dont comment at all on something that you know nothing about

I don't think ignorance has ever been a barrier to posting on Zoochat.

 

[MRJ]

I definitely agree that crowds are unlikely to flock to see an endangered iguana or three. But as has been pointed out regional collection planning when it comes to many exotics have been stuck in a rut, which dates back several decades. It was intensely frustrating when working in the industry, let alone as an interested bystander, to see species phased out, given little attention and interest flip-flopped year after year. I won't go into the list of species as it has been repeated ad nauseum on ZC.

As I have said I don't speak for exotic zoos and I have already expressed my disappointment regarding small mammals and birds. However so long as they satisfy their core markets (young families) and maintain the support of their owners I don't know how you convince them otherwise. I did notice something interesting the other night, though, on an ABC program. Annabel Crabb commented wondering why there were so many meerkats at the zoo these days. Maybe the public are beginning to notice.

If we return to the iguanas, exactly which exotic reptiles are part of current co-ordinated breeding programs in Australian zoos? I bet the Fijian iguanas are probably about it. Most of the other species currently held are common enough in the wild or easily available in exotic herp pet trade outside Australia. Some species which might generate some interest like rhino iggys and radiated tortoises have just held on by a handful of collections and sporadically bred. Are you honestly saying that Australian zoos could not accomodate breeding programs for half a dozen exotic herps?

I would thing that Australian zoos are well placed to be involved in ex-situ exotic herp conservation. Reptiles are fairly easy to get in and out of the country, especially compared to mammals and birds, and we have a considerable number of talented herpetologists. However it is not as simple as grabbing a few animals and shoving them in a tank, and here are some of the things to be considered:

• Coordination. It takes a committed and trained individual with the time and resources available to manage a successful breeding program. They need the support of their institution and frankly smaller private zoos especially have shown a reluctance to be involved at this level.
• Numbers: The requirements for a conservation breeding program go well beyond those required for display. We are talking 200-500 individuals. To make a worthwhile contribution a zoo would have be be willing to house some 20-100 individuals.
• Connection to the Wild: The objective of any conservation program is to improve the species threatened status in the wild. It is not always possible to demonstrate how that will happen with an ex-situ program.

As I stated before I couldn't care less if green iguanas stayed in Australian zoos, but at least suitable alternatives need to be found. I notice that bloody corn snakes seem to have become a popular reptile in collections. They are the number 1 beginner's snake with private keepers outside Australia. This is not the direction that Australian zoos should be headed.

Again, I do not speak for exotic zoos.

 

[Zoofan15]

I've read the controversial iguana post, as I was wondering at the source of this lively debate.

My interpretation is that the mention of a lack of support from other facilities in sustaining this species is to be taken at face value - the figures speak for themselves (there are only 13 amongst all other Australian facilities); and the post is primarily about celebrating the success in breeding a species that hasn't been bred for almost a decade.

While we will all have our opinions on what species we'd like to see supported on a regional level, I'm sure we can all agree that efforts to prevent an exotic species from dying out in the region is something to celebrate. The only exception has to be when it's directly taking the place of a species more worthy; but given the size of the Green iguana, I'm willing to believe that is not the case here.

 

[tetrapod]

I would thing that Australian zoos are well placed to be involved in ex-situ exotic herp conservation. Reptiles are fairly easy to get in and out of the country, especially compared to mammals and birds, and we have a considerable number of talented herpetologists. However it is not as simple as grabbing a few animals and shoving them in a tank, and here are some of the things to be considered:

• Coordination. It takes a committed and trained individual with the time and resources available to manage a successful breeding program. They need the support of their institution and frankly smaller private zoos especially have shown a reluctance to be involved at this level.
• Numbers: The requirements for a conservation breeding program go well beyond those required for display. We are talking 200-500 individuals. To make a worthwhile contribution a zoo would have be be willing to house some 20-100 individuals.
• Connection to the Wild: The objective of any conservation program is to improve the species threatened status in the wild. It is not always possible to demonstrate how that will happen with an ex-situ program.

I totally agree that the Australasian zoo are well placed. I'm just surprised that there are very few exotic breeding programs currently in place. Philippine crocs would have been the largest species, and despite interest from other zoos only Melbourne ever had them. Tortoises have been rarely bred despite being high profile. Rare SE Asian turtles are almost the perfect group and yet only a smattering of individuals are ever kept. Plenty of other examples where there's only been occasional breeding at best. I don't think that Australian zoos need to invent new programs, thus not needing 100s of individuals. Just joining American and European programs would be a start.
And I fully appreciate that you are not the exotic species advocate for Australian zoos. I acknowledge that you give us a rare peak at where the Australian zoo industry is currently at. A pity that other zoos could not be more forthcoming!

 

[Chlidonias]

I notice that bloody corn snakes seem to have become a popular reptile in collections. They are the number 1 beginner's snake with private keepers outside Australia. This is not the direction that Australian zoos should be headed.

I think that the Corn Snakes in the zoos are all seized animals (i.e. having been illegally kept by private persons within Australia) rather than deliberate acquisitions by the zoos like the iguanas or other reptiles would be. I'm not sure they are actively breeding the Corn Snakes for display?

 

[tetrapod]

I think that the Corn Snakes in the zoos are all seized animals (i.e. having been illegally kept by private persons within Australia) rather than deliberate acquisitions by the zoos like the iguanas or other reptiles would be. I'm not sure they are actively breeding the Corn Snakes for display?

Corn snakes are perfect for handleable displays. Get to a nice length, colourful and not prone to stress. Pretty bomb-proof. I accept that zoos didn't import the specimens that they now have, nor probably breed them (which is possibly a different argument that if they want to keep on having corn snakes, they will need to at some stage!). But to put them on display suggests the zoos don't have a 'better' species available. Which is kind of my point regarding Green iguanas.
It doesn't take much for me to scan herp lists or rehoming lists in the UK to see a wealth of species that could make Australian zoo collections look a lot healthier and more interesting. I appreciate import laws can make it difficult, but I don't think the zoo industry in Australia helps itself either.
This comes from someone who grew up admiring the wealth of species that were held in the reptile house at Melbourne Zoo.

 

[Chlidonias]

Corn snakes are perfect for handleable displays. Get to a nice length, colourful and not prone to stress. Pretty bomb-proof. I accept that zoos didn't import the specimens that they now have, nor probably breed them (which is possibly a different argument that if they want to keep on having corn snakes, they will need to at some stage!). But to put them on display suggests the zoos don't have a 'better' species available. Which is kind of my point regarding Green iguanas.
It doesn't take much for me to scan herp lists or rehoming lists in the UK to see a wealth of species that could make Australian zoo collections look a lot healthier and more interesting. I appreciate import laws can make it difficult, but I don't think the zoo industry in Australia helps itself either.
This comes from someone who grew up admiring the wealth of species that were held in the reptile house at Melbourne Zoo.

I think I misunderstood your previous post then. I thought you were complaining that the zoos had specifically chosen Corn Snakes over more conservationally-fitting species, so I was just saying that I think the zoos simply provided homes for seized animals.

 

[tetrapod]

I think I misunderstood your previous post then. I thought you were complaining that the zoos had specifically chosen Corn Snakes over more conservationally-fitting species, so I was just saying that I think the zoos simply provided homes for seized animals.

I think the discussion is covering quite a range of issues hence the confusion (probably not helped by me)!
In regard to corn snakes, yes Australian zoos didn't import them. I presume all individuals were the result of confiscations for the illegal pet trade. I don't see any problems with Aust zoos maintaining the species, as they make an easy exotic handleable animal. My point was they are taking up potential exhibit space for more interesting species which could be part of a conservation program.