In search of rare cat species

Chlidonias said:
My post had nothing to do with lumping subspecies of tigers. I was referring to species.
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I know, and my point is that the reason the Amur Tiger was lumped into the other mainland subspecies wasn't due to them representing merely one end of a cline as you suggested, but because if it was recognised as a subspecies they would have had to split Sumatran off as a species to maintain monophyly.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
I know, and my point is that the reason the Amur Tiger was lumped into the other mainland subspecies wasn't due to them representing merely one end of a cline as you suggested, but because if it was recognised as a subspecies they would have had to split Sumatran off as a species to maintain monophyly.
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But my post had nothing to do with the subspecies, so I never suggested anything of the sort. I was saying that southeast Asian to far eastern Leopard Cats are a climatic cline within the species, the same as with southeast Asian to far eastern Tigers and Leopards.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Yes , actually several zoos here hold this beautiful cat species.

On public view in Sao Paulo state at Sorocaba zoo there is a pair, in Minas Gerais you have a pair in Belo Horizonte zoo and in Goiás State you have a number of them kept at the Brasilia zoo.

Not zoos and not open to the public , but it is also worth mentioning that there are some really beautiful individuals of this species kept at private conservation centres both in Sao Paulo State. These are the Brazilian feline conservation centre in Jundiaí city and Sao Paulo zoos CECFAU centre (sadly strictly closed to public) just outside of Sorocaba city.

As I've said above the feline centre isn't open to the public but just send the centre an email and they will definitely allow you to visit and see these cats which have recently had kittens (which will probably be fully grown by the time of your future visit to Brazil).
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Thanks for this great info. It sounds like a plan to me. Last time I was in Sao Paulo was on my way to Northern Pantanal (Cuiaba) and I couldn't spend enough time in such a huge city. But since I'm planning to go to Southern Pantanal (Campo Grande) I will also plan to spend some days in Sao Paulo an visit Sorocaba zoo in a day-trip or two.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Well, the lumping of Siberian Tiger into the same subspecies of Malayan Tiger wasn't because they were found to represent a cline :rolleyes: it was basically because all the mainland races share a common ancestor more recently than the Sundaic ones, but they were unwilling to split the Sundaic races into a distinct species as they did the Leopard Cat and (earlier) the Clouded Leopard. The IUCN paper itself noted that Amur was an evolutionarily significant unit, but nonetheless insisted that as it diverged more recently than Sumatran (and they were treating Sumatran as a mere subspecies) they had to lump it with all the others.
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Knowing this, would you be in favor of splitting Tiger into two species?
 
Darwin Lopez said:
Thanks for this great info. It sounds like a plan to me. Last time I was in Sao Paulo was on my way to Northern Pantanal (Cuiaba) and I couldn't spend enough time in such a huge city. But since I'm planning to go to Southern Pantanal (Campo Grande) I will also plan to spend some days in Sao Paulo an visit Sorocaba zoo in a day-trip or two.
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That sounds like a brilliant idea. The pampas cat pair at Sorocaba zoo are very active and photogenic (particularly the male ) so it is definitely worth making a trip to see them.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Personally, I do. The IUCN update was not the first time I've heard the discussion of tigers needing a split.
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Have you read any papers on tiger genetics? Even the most recent ones I can find all concur that there was a bottleneck of tigers c.100,000 years ago. The three island subspecies are extremely closely related to one another, and are thought likely to have derived from a recent recolonisation from what is now mainland South-east Asia after the Toba super-eruption c.73,000 years ago.
 
Chlidonias said:
Have you read any papers on tiger genetics? Even the most recent ones I can find all concur that there was a bottleneck of tigers c.100,000 years ago. The three island subspecies are extremely closely related to one another, and are thought likely to have derived from a recent recolonisation from what is now mainland South-east Asia after the Toba super-eruption c.73,000 years ago.
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Not read that, no. I do know that there's some debate as to how distinct the three islands forms were from one another.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Not read that, no. I do know that there's some debate as to how distinct the three islands forms were from one another.

~Thylo
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I know that in general the AZA populations of the island species are likely not genetically sustainable in the long term, especially without a significant increase in the number of spaces devoted to them. How definite do people think the evidence would have to be regarding the species being closely related before they would be managed as one population?
 
Okapi Lover said:
I know that in general the AZA populations of the island species are likely not genetically sustainable in the long term, especially without a significant increase in the number of spaces devoted to them. How definite do people think the evidence would have to be regarding the species being closely related before they would be managed as one population?
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Considering the fact 2/3 of the island subspecies are extinct, the captive population of Sumatran IS being managed as a single taxon :p

Chlidonias said:
Have you read any papers on tiger genetics? Even the most recent ones I can find all concur that there was a bottleneck of tigers c.100,000 years ago. The three island subspecies are extremely closely related to one another, and are thought likely to have derived from a recent recolonisation from what is now mainland South-east Asia after the Toba super-eruption c.73,000 years ago.
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This does not, of course, necessarily preclude the island tiger now being distinct at species level from the mainland population, even if (as seems likely) the island races were all synonymous :p although the specific claim about Toba is a new one to me, and I *have* tried to keep up to date with the literature in this area!
 
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Okapi Lover said:
I know that in general the AZA populations of the island species are likely not genetically sustainable in the long term, especially without a significant increase in the number of spaces devoted to them. How definite do people think the evidence would have to be regarding the species being closely related before they would be managed as one population?
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As TLD mentioned, all bar the Sumatran Tiger is extinct so not sure what you mean here? But regardless, the Sumatran Tiger population represents possibly the largest percentage of tigers in captivity worldwide (not counting generic) as there are linked breeding programs for the species across hundreds of zoos in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Additionally, I have never heard of the American or European TAGs struggling to find spaces to place all three taxa (Amur, Malayan, and Sumatran) as tigers are one of the most popular zoo animals and pretty much every zoo wants them, with some even housing multiple taxa.

EDIT: On further review it appears Amur is the most populous tiger taxa in captivity, though Sumatrans still have a huge population.

~Thylo
 
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TeaLovingDave said:
This does not, of course, necessarily preclude the island tiger now being distinct at species level from the mainland population, even if (as seems likely) the island races were all synonymous :p
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It really does. All living tigers are too close genetically to be anything other than a single species, although the different populations can still be distinguished genetically corresponding more-or-less to the tradiitonal subspecies classifications.

I think the two-species idea stems initially from the defunct theory that the Javan tiger was a relic of an ancient tiger species, with the Sumatran deriving from that, but the genetics show this isn't the case.
 
I wonder how much he had to pay Fauna Andina for the photo session. Someone reliable in cat conservation told me when BBC filmed their guignas for a documentary they had to pay ten thousand dollars.
 
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