Indian rhinos in Europe

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Yassa said:
The female calf in Whipsnade might be another option for Edinburgh but she is only a few months old yet.
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If Whipsnade(not Chester)are to receive female Batschi, then I think the Whipsnade female calf (asha) may well leave in due course as the indoor accomodation could be a problem. Of course they could still house more rhinos in the old houses but they are pretty poor quality and need upgrading(no indoor pools)

Time flies- asha is over a year old already- when I saw her last September she already looked about a third grown.
 
The 2 male Indian Rhinos at Edinburgh are to young to breed at the moment I think roughly they are 4 years old, and male Indian Rhino's do not mature until 10 years.
 
Bongo said:
The 2 male Indian Rhinos at Edinburgh are to young to breed at the moment I think roughly they are 4 years old, and male Indian Rhino's do not mature until 10 years.
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I'd say mature at 10, but probably fertile and so potential breeders from (say) 6-8 years...
 
Bulls are sexually mature at around 7-8 years of age. Potentially, they can THEN sire calves. What is important is that the bull is older than the cow. So theoretically, a 5-6 year old cow may calve from a breeding with an 8-year old bull (that is his age at time of conception).

It is therefore entirely speculative to expect the new bulls imported into the UK will breed in a few years time to 5-6 year old bulls. For that, one requires older bulls. In the UK, there are no current candidates for this position.

Both Chester and Edinburgh Zoos - despite what most forum readers would like to see - are not a breeding option for another 5-6 years (2012+ at the earliest).

When imported female Baatschii will be sexually mature in 4 years. Both Whipsnade females will need a bull from 2009 onwards for their next breeding (weaning of current calves at 20-24 months). So, a mature bull in the UK is ONLY required from end 2008. :D
 
jelle said:
What is important is that the bull is older than the cow.

Both Whipsnade females will need a bull from 2009 onwards for their next breeding (weaning of current calves at 20-24 months). So, a mature bull in the UK is ONLY required from end 2008. :D
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I guess your first statement refers only to first breedings...as if the new Bull for Whipsnade is to be 'Hugo' he is several years younger than the two Nepal females...but he will then be aged 7/8 so I suppose he can be classed as 'almost' mature. (Anyway, it seems to be a matter of what nearly suitable- aged male is available as 'beggars can't be choosers'.)

Jelle- can you tell us exactly which date (day & month) in 2008/9 he will be required?...:D:D:D
 
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MARK said:
Lets hope they upgrade the older rhino house it could be useful
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They ought really to extend the old sheds so that they contain indoor pools as well, like the new house.
the new house should be open about now(it may already be?) It can accomodate the three existing females (plus the two calves) so the old sheds would be temporarily empty. So maybe they will upgrade them during the next year or so before this extra female and a new bull arrive.

There definately isn't room for 4 females( that includes the old girl 'Roopa') plus a bull all to live in the new house...
 
Pertinax said:
I guess your first statement refers only to first breedings...as if the new Bull for Whipsnade is to be 'Hugo' he is several years younger than the two Nepal females...but he will then be aged 7/8 so I suppose he can be classed as 'almost' mature. (Anyway, it seems to be a matter of what nearly suitable- aged male is available as 'beggars can't be choosers'.)

Jelle- can you tell us exactly which date (day & month) in 2008/9 he will be required?...:D
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Hugo comes from a bachelor setting and will have acquired sufficient social skills to hold his own among the older females when he is 7/8-ish (2009/10). Given his genetic background, he is at least less related to the Basel line (so that is a good sign too). Here again the recommendation is to breed out the Basel lineage and bring more wild genes into the captive population.

Second part: getting all cheeky ... now??? :D I will go and check now when the current proven breeding bulls had first successful matings in the past (ironically the current issue is a lack of mature or sub-adult bulls for breeding).

I really think 1-2 bulls ex SSP and the Indian zoos would do well. In the Indian case we could send over 1-2 cows of the Basel lineage in exchange. :cool:

Perhaps Roopa is the candidate for transfer up north? She can then retire with dignity and 1 of the new bulls from the continent can try and relate to what she is ... a mature cow.
 
jelle said:
Perhaps Roopa is the candidate for transfer up north? She can then retire with dignity and 1 of the new bulls from the continent can try and relate to what she is ... a mature cow.
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They told me at Whipsnade last year they don't propose to breed her any more so she IS surplus for them. Though I guess she could still breed again with a younger bull as she could still be fertile, despite her age. Maybe they will move her because of their space requirements- its a possibility...
 
jelle said:
ironically the current issue is a lack of mature or sub-adult bulls for breeding. I really think 1-2 bulls ex SSP and the Indian zoos would do well. In the Indian case we could send over 1-2 cows of the Basel lineage in exchange. :cool:
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Yes, I can see now that this is becoming an increasing problem..:(.
 
Sorry guys .... Roopa is now 36 and definitely post-reproductive. She has had her fill of calves (2 survivors in the population). It is fair to assume she may have come down with age-related disabilities (pure conjecture on my part though). Thus she must and will remain for the rest of her remaining lifespan at Whipsnade. She will be allowed the dignity of a good retirement home at Whipsnade.

The female Baatschii coming in from Basel is - the logical option - only on temporary holding at Whipsnade. I guess she is due to be moved later on up north. Probably, this has something to do with readying the exhibit at Chester to accomodate a cow rhino. Separation is initially called for and letting both individuals become acquainted through the bars of their enclosure. Baatschii is way too young to introduce her now to a bull (and as I observed before it is not wise to let a same age bull in with a cow on heat).
 
I guess that means Roopa and Baatschi (until she presumably moves on) will stay in the old house then whilst the mothers, calves and Jaffna (until he moves back) will move into the new one...?
 
jelle said:
Perhaps Roopa is the candidate for transfer up north? She can then retire with dignity and 1 of the new bulls from the continent can try and relate to what she is ... a mature cow.
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A contradiction here-;) you say this then in the next post you say that she should stay at Whipsnade... I imagine she'll stay where she is but who knows if space is needed?
 
CZJimmy said:
I guess that means Roopa and Baatschi (until she presumably moves on) will stay in the old house then whilst the mothers, calves and Jaffna (until he moves back) will move into the new one...?
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Jaffna is currently(or was last autumn) in the house and paddock which used to contain the Gaur.(nearest the 'Tiger Falls' enclosure) My guess is he will return to Basel without going into the new house.

The three compartments(from what I saw of the building) will presumably house 3 animals(+ calves) I do think the old houses are substandard and feel sorry for any rhino that has to stay in them- (perhaps 'Roopa' as she's post-breeding)
 
Pertinax said:
A contradiction here-;) you say this then in the next post you say that she should stay at Whipsnade... I imagine she'll stay where she is but who knows if space is needed?
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Quite right your observation. But I am yet to piece together the entire puzzle from the current info set.

The cow Baatschii move to Whipsnade is confirmed ex Basel Zoo The bull Hugo move from Warsawa Zoo to the UK is also final. It is current practice to let the bulls socialise and mature with individuals of their own sex.

Baatschii has some years yet to mature and I find it highly unlikely that she will be maintained within the same exhibit as her prospective mate. I am not aware that Chester Zoo has already provided for separate cow and bull facilities. Unless that is so, she will not move there soon. I guess first things first she will sit out her quarantaine period in Whipsnade and then move north.

Hugo has been with another adolescent bull for almost 3 years and slowly reaching reproductive age. It is therefore reasonable to assume that he will be have been given an immediate "breed" recommendation. Since, the ONLY mature cows are at Whipsnade and his combi with them would suit fine from a genetic perspective, he will most likely become the new Whipsnade breeding bull in 2009/2010.
 
jelle said:
Baatschii has some years yet to mature and I find it highly unlikely that she will be maintained within the same exhibit as her prospective mate. I am not aware that Chester Zoo has already provided for separate cow and bull facilities. Unless that is so, she will not move there soon. I guess first things first she will sit out her quarantaine period in Whipsnade and then move north.
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Chester already have an off-show paddock were one of them could be given access too, so it most be down to quarantaine as whipsnade could house her in their old rhino enclosure. As at chester they could easily interact with each other with how the enclosure is set up.
 
jelle said:
Quite right your observation. But I am yet to piece together the entire puzzle from the current info set.

The cow Baatschii move to Whipsnade is confirmed ex Basel Zoo The bull Hugo move from Warsawa Zoo to the UK is also final. It is current practice to let the bulls socialise and mature with individuals of their own sex.

Baatschii has some years yet to mature and I find it highly unlikely that she will be maintained within the same exhibit as her prospective mate. I guess first things first she will sit out her quarantaine period in Whipsnade and then move north.

Hugo has been with another adolescent bull for almost 3 years and slowly reaching reproductive age. It is therefore reasonable to assume that he will be have been given an immediate "breed" recommendation. he will most likely become the new Whipsnade breeding bull in 2009/2010.
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1. Yes, same for me. Each time a possible new option becomes apparent.:confused:

2. I'm interested to hear about the recommendation of keeping young bulls together 'single sex'- perhaps to ensure they get plenty of 'male' company and become 'real' bulls at maturity? (I believe there's some evidence that in elephants, male calves that never have contact with another bull don't develop full male character and are sexless- Chester's 'Jubilee' was a classic example)

3. In that case, perhaps Chester's 'Patna' will be given a male companion first, and then at maturity, a female?

4. Summary; It seems 'Hugo' will definately be the next breeding bull at Whipsnade- while cow Batchi will go first to Whipsnade but could later be transferred to either Chester or Edinburgh.
 
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Just a note: the move of Stuttgart's cow Shikari (born only in late 2006) is in contrast to the current established policy. Bull Jacob (born 2004) is not mature yet. However, since bulls by and large mature 2 years after the cows.

It is fair to assume in this case the breeding combination is a set and match. From a genetics point of view it is a good combo with as little old Basel lineage as possible (WhipsnadexSD-WAP) x (StuttgartxNepal).


The combo Patna (Berlin TPxSD-WAP) with Baatschii (SD-WAPxBasel) would be fine too from a genetics point of view. Thus a desired breeding combo .... The only downside is that at the cow's maturity the bull Patna is not nearly half way there ...........


Since, the Chester staff so vehemently assure us that Baatschii is coming in March most definitely. Perhaps she is staying shortstay at Whipsnade while her off-exhibit is being readied and she enjoys her short quarantaine at Whipsnade. When the exhibit is ready to receive her, she is sent on to Chester ......... after all.
 
Whipsnade Rhino accomodation.

Here's my guess as to what will happen now....:)

1.When the new house opens, the three existing cows(includes Roopa) plus the two calves will move into it.(it has three compartments)

2 Bull 'Jaffna' remains seperately in the old Gaur's shed/paddock area until he (soon) returns to Basel (unless he's already gone..).

3.The young female Batschi from Basel arrives and lives in one of the old sheds/yards vacated by the 3 females. With the others in the new house, she can be quarantined here without coming into contact with other rhinos.

4.Afterward she either stays at Whipsnade or moves to Chester.

5. A new bull, 'Hugo' arrives. He has to live in one of the older enclosures,(at least while there are 3 cows)

Will I be right?
 
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