I admit the name Thomas Price means nothing to me and I know nothing about what he has done. But you are saying that whatever animals he smuggled if they breed then their offspring are fair game for any zoo.....ETHICALLY? I'm not seeing the difference so much.
No, I am not saying that - and I strongly suspect you *know* that I am not saying that.
Thomas Price is the individual behind CTC Conservation Centre in Uganda - which among other things is used as the means by which the Galapagos iguana he and his associates smuggle into the country are "greenwashed" and given falsifed CITES paperwork (they smuggle juveniles into the country then export them to places such as Japan, Switzerland and Thailand under paperwork claiming them to be captive-bred).
He has previously been convicted of smuggling Naultinus geckos from New Zealand - which I suspect is one reason he switched his attention to the Galapagos!
There 100% would be casualties. But, if successful they should get some praise. Any species “new” to captivity has some casualties. Look at the tree pangolin, 40 ish importance to the states with only about 50% surviving. But, now there is successful breeding programs at Brookfield zoo shows that this can work.
I am still greatly confused on how no one understands how revolutionary this would be to zoos. Yes it is wrong to do but seriously keeping such an elusive species successfully deserves a praise.
I am still greatly confused on how no one understands how revolutionary this would be to zoos. Yes it is wrong to do but seriously keeping such an elusive species successfully deserves a praise.
Thank you for proving @OkapiJohn 's original point. It makes no sense to "applaud" a zoo for exhibiting an animal when they obtained it illegally and unethically. This isn't 1824, and we shouldn't be cheering on the Greens Zoo for essentially being a modern day private menagerie that has "rescued" illegally traded animals under suspicious circumstances.
Think of it this way, imagine you have a family heirloom and it's your job to keep it safe. Someone breaks into your house, steals it, and sells it to a museum. Would you "applaud" the robber for managing to obtain it because it's priceless and nobody else has been able to have it?
It's really frustrating to see people stray away from the main point of this thread when we should somewhat agree that we are on this forum because we share a love of zoos and the conservation and rescue work they do, but this is a facility that is run by a giant natural gas corporation and is obtaining extremely rare, already trafficked species in ways that seem fishy to say the least. I'm willing to eat crow on that, but the evidence given so far is showing that this "zoo" is not something to be jumping about.
(And yes, I know I've gone crazy over rare species obtained is shady ways in the past, but welcome to the present, where I have changed and zoos are supposed to be responsible and ethical in their ways, as should I).
And yes, I know I've gone crazy rare species obtained is shady ways in the past, but welcome to the present, where I have changed and zoos are supposed to be responsible and ethical in their ways, as should I.
Thank you for proving @OkapiJohn 's original point. It makes no sense to "applaud" a zoo for exhibiting an animal when they obtained it illegally and unethically. This isn't 1824, and we shouldn't be cheering on the Greens Zoo for essentially being a modern day private menagerie that has "rescued" illegally traded animals under suspicious circumstances.
Think of it this way, imagine you have a family heirloom and it's your job to keep it safe. Someone breaks into your house, steals it, and sells it to a museum. Would you "applaud" the robber for managing to obtain it because it's priceless and nobody else has been able to have it?
It's really frustrating to see people stray away from the main point of this thread when we should somewhat agree that we are on this forum because we share a love of zoos and the conservation and rescue work they do, but this is a facility that is run by a giant natural gas corporation and is obtaining extremely rare, already trafficked species in ways that seem fishy to say the least. I'm willing to eat crow on that, but the evidence given so far is showing that this "zoo" is not something to be jumping about.
(And yes, I know I've gone crazy over rare species obtained is shady ways in the past, but welcome to the present, where I have changed and zoos are supposed to be responsible and ethical in their ways, as should I).
How did I prove his point? I never said it was good for a zoo to obtain species illegally, yet I just stated it’s impressive if a zoo could acquire a species like a saola.
Indeed, the transfer of twenty-six (now forty-one) Spix's macaws from the ACTP to India was not authorized by the Brazilian authorities. ICMBio actually requested the zoo to return these parrots.
Strangely enough, all of their Spix's macaws were returned to Brazil this year. I am quite sure they are just returning the birds as requested and there's no conservation effort.
Indeed, the transfer of twenty-six (now forty-one) Spix's macaws from the ACTP to India was not authorized by the Brazilian authorities. ICMBio actually requested the zoo to return these parrots.
Perhaps a bit off topic but at least relevant. If I recall correctly ICMBio always said that all Spix macaws belong to the Brazilian gouvernment and should be returned to Brasil.
Even when all of them were at Al Wabra who did an amazing job saving them and ICMBio nor the Brasilian gouvernment had the means, nor the ability nor the track record (and with Bolsonaro in power at the time, not even the political will) to keep these animals alive. So to say that the animals were send from the ACTP without consent of ICMBio needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Where did the information come from that they are keeping Galapagos iguana’s? Missed that… But if there is any species where it is obvious that it can only be outside it’s native range due to illegal smuggling, it’s Galapagos iguana’s. If you are keeping those, then you’re not even trying to hide it anymore.
Pere David's Deer and Spix Macaw. Two species that would certainly be extinct if not for illegally smuggled animals.
Today Spix macaw are once again breeding in the wild , but paradoxically Brazil seems to be the biggest obstacle to further efforts towards reintroduction (though that may have changed with the birds from Varana going to Brazil).
I think that somewhat highlights the (well intentioned or not) efforts of some government authorities to protect their wildlife that could lead to their demise.
California Condors may be the poster child for this debate. If some "conservationists" had their way- the Condor would be extinct today.
I'm not advocating a blank check for taking rare animals out of the wild for breeding but it should pretty much be a real and serious consideration in all cases.
as an aside- it was published there were 370 Spix macaws as of last year, not the 200 as in that
Mongabay article ( I really like that organization though BTW.)
Does anybody have information on which okapis are currently at Vantara? According to CZA, they have 3.4 okapis. Their Instagram post in Oct 2024 listed the following animals: Hamaki, Fareeda, and their adorable children - Isumo, Zori and twins - Sita and Laxman. Laxman, Zori and Fareeda are just alternative speelings of Lakshman, Zuri and Farida respectively.
Assuming that the relationships told in the post are true, I can't figure out some things, such as who is Isumo. The okapis that matches in terms of parentage and age is Adea and Johari who was born in 2018 and 2020 respectively in Al Bustan. But she would be the only one whose name was changed. Additionally, they imported another male during the second import, who might be Zito or Mizumu, both Ayari x M'bura, born in Al Bustan, but that is pure speculation.
The first import in 2022-2023 from Al Bustan was for the following:
1.0 Hamaki (Ulimi x Semliki) (24/04/2009, Brookfield Zoo)
0.1 Farida/Fareeda (Romakari x Elphie) (06/08/2010, White Oak Conservation Centre)
0.1 UNK (maybe one of their earlier offspring born at Al Bustan)
Then, during 2023-2024, 1.1 were born (the twins Sita and Laxman) and another 1.1 were acquired.
1.0 Laxman/Lakshman (Hamaki x Farida) (21/07/2023, Greens Zoo)
0.1 Sita (Hamaki x Farida) (21/07/2023, Greens Zoo)
1.0 UNK (Zito or Mizumu maybe?)
0.1 UNK (maybe one of their earlier offspring born at Al Bustan)
For reference, this is the list of all the okapis originally in Al Bustan.
1.0 Ayari (Mujinga x Ingasu) (18/08/1999, White Oak Conservation Centre)
0.1 M'bura (Poucet x Kweli) (02/06/2011, Bronx Zoo)
1.0 Kito (Ayari x M'bura) (06/10/2018, Al Bustan Zoo)
1.0 Mzimu (Ayari x M'bura) (26/12/2021, Al Bustan Zoo)
1.0 Hamaki (Ulimi x Semliki) (24/04/2009, Brookfield Zoo)
0.1 Farida/Fareeda (Romakari x Elphie) (06/08/2010, White Oak Conservation Centre)
0.1 Zuri (Hamaki x Farida) (28/10/2015, Al Bustan Zoo)
0.1 Adea (Hamaki x Farida) (30/04/2018, Al Bustan Zoo)
0.1 Johari (Hamaki x Farida) (27/11/2020, Al Bustan Zoo)
There are some questions about the amount of animals at Vantara and the legality how they are acquired. If the numbers are correct there should be 39.000 animals at Vantara of which 30.000 were acquired in the past 9 months, including a mountain gorilla, 142 giant anteaters and 101 giant otters.... Indien: Gigantisches Zooprojekt - der Milliardär und seine 181 Löwen
There are some questions about the amount of animals at Vantara and the legality how they are acquired. If the numbers are correct there should be 39.000 animals at Vantara of which 30.000 were acquired in the past 9 months, including a mountain gorilla, 142 giant anteaters and 101 giant otters.... Indien: Gigantisches Zooprojekt - der Milliardär und seine 181 Löwen
The CITES database (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) shows an import to India from Mozambique of 10 Cercopithecus hamlyni (Hamlyn´s monkeys) intended for a Zoo and classified as "Animals bred in captivity in accordance with Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.).....". This data is only of 2024.
Talking about bizarre numbers, there are import entries in 2022 and 2023 of up to 34 Hamlyn´s monkeys to Thailand from The Democratic Republic of Congo, intended for commercial purposes and being all wildcaught.
I dont know anything about what is behind the data nor try to entail anything, but I was just curious and wanted to check. If you want to check any species that is included in CITES and their international import/export permit entries, you can check it out at the CITES Trade Database website.
There are some questions about the amount of animals at Vantara and the legality how they are acquired. If the numbers are correct there should be 39.000 animals at Vantara of which 30.000 were acquired in the past 9 months, including a mountain gorilla, 142 giant anteaters and 101 giant otters.... Indien: Gigantisches Zooprojekt - der Milliardär und seine 181 Löwen
Mountain gorilla? Where in the world did they get that from? Could the pup that was rescued in Istanbul's airport be part of the operation as well???
This case is becoming of bigger impact and importance by the day, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being parodied on a Scooby-Doo episode in a couple of years...
