India's Richest Family Building World's Largest Zoo

OkapiJohn said:
Nuremberg Zoo refused an offer to send its surplus baboons to Vantara, "preferring" to cull the animals instead. I think no serious Western zoo is much in tune with Vantara.
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Thank goodness the Zoo Director and Board did the right thing! Do not deal with the Devil in Disguise ... Period.


BTW: Unbelievable .... How some argue in the favour of Ventara and lambast a highly regarded Zoo Nuernberg as a bad cull over animal welfare choice... Huh...., you got it equally wrong and then do have the audacity to defend this Happy Few Holy Balloney of a Private Animal Collection. Give me a break and for what or whose benefit ..., I do not see any at all?
 
Zz123 said:
I believe Nuremberg Zoo prioritized protecting their reputation over animal welfare. It’s easier for them to kill the baboons and end the issue, using the polished excuse of caring for animal welfare. How truly disgusting.
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They answered the question about Vantara on their page.
2. Indien:
Das Angebot eines indischen Zoos konnten der Tiergarten Nürnberg und die Kollegen des Europäischen Zooverbandes EAZA intensiver prüfen. Aktuell besteht von indischer Seite aus offenbar kein konkretes Interesse an einer Übernahme einer Gruppe Nürnberger Guinea-Paviane mehr - grundlegende Informationen zu den Haltungsbedingungen fehlen.

translation:
2. India:
The Nuremberg Zoo and colleagues from the European Association of Zoos and Species (EAZA) were able to more closely examine the offer from an Indian zoo. Currently, there appears to be no concrete interest from India in taking over a group of Guinea baboons from Nuremberg – basic information on the conditions is lacking.
Source
 
Zz123 said:
Nuremberg Zoo could have sent someone to inspect the facility before sending the baboons. If the place was truly bad, they would have had clear answers.
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The director of Nuremberg Zoo did visit Vantara as part of an EAZA delegation in September 2024. But to quote the zoo:

Im September 2024 besuchte Tiergartendirektor Dr. Dag Encke zusammen mit einer Delegation des Europäischen Zooverbandes EAZA (European Association of Zoos and Aquaria) das Greens Zoological Rescue and Rehabilitation Centres (GZRRC) – inzwischen bekannt als „Vantara“ – um zu erörtern, ob eine Übergabe einer Gruppe von Pavianen möglich wäre. Nach einem anfänglich sehr vielversprechenden Austausch konnten keine konkreten Vereinbarungen getroffen werden. Zoos können nach ihren europäischen Statuten nur mit Einrichtungen zusammenarbeiten, die sich an die internationalen Regeln (zum Beispiel CITES/Washingtoner Artenschutzabkommen) halten und bei denen Transparenz hinsichtlich der Herkunft ihres Tierbestands besteht – damit wollen und müssen sie vermeiden, dass Zoos selber einen Beitrag zum illegalen Wildtierhandel leisten. Eine Überprüfung offener Sachfragen war jedoch nicht möglich.
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There was initially good communication, but Vantara failed to answer necessary questions and Nuremberg Zoo allso could not be associated with a "zoo" of which there are very clear indications it is involved in smuggling on a big scale.

Additionally all the people given tours of Vantara seem to see only the nice and green part of Vantara with larger enclosures:
Vantara_nice.png

If you look at google maps, that is the minority of the grounds. Large swaths consist solely of simple square sandy paddocks and rows upon rows of small cages. Which makes sense as it is the only way to house so many species accumulated over such a short time period

Vantara_notsonice.png
All those houses are lined with small cages. To give a sense of scale, the 5 slightly larger houses on the top of the screen each have 10 cages on either side of ~32 square metres. So you are looking at hundreds and hundreds of individual enclosures.

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All the houses with red roofs on the left and right are lined with cages (the 4 in the bottom left corner have 10-15 cages on each side of the house of some 50 square metres each)

Vantara_notsonice3.png
Looks more like a farm...

This is a place of literally industrial scale and with all the question marks around it, those areal photos do not look good.
 

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lintworm said:
The director of Nuremberg Zoo did visit Vantara as part of an EAZA delegation in September 2024. But to quote the zoo:



There was initially good communication, but Vantara failed to answer necessary questions and Nuremberg Zoo so could not be associated with a "zoo" of which there are very clear indications it is involved in smuggling on a large scale.

Additionally all the people given tours of Vantara seem to see only the nice and green part of Vantara with larger enclosures:
View attachment 815817

If you look at google maps, that is the minority of the grounds. Large swaths consist solely of simple square sandy paddocks and rows upon rows of small cages. Which makes sense as it is the only way to house so many species accumulated over such a short time period

View attachment 815818
All those houses are lined with small cages. To give a sense of scale, the 5 slightly larger houses on the top of the screen each have 10 cages on either side of ~32 square meters. So you are looking at hundreds and hundreds of individual enclosures.

View attachment 815819
All the houses with red roofs on the left and right are lined with cages (the 4 in the bottom left corner have 10-15 cages on each side of the house of some 50 square meters each)

View attachment 815820
Looks more like a farm...

This is a place of literally industrial scale and with all the question marks around it, those areal photos do not look good.
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The sheer capacity of the places makes me wonder what the contingency plan is should something happen. The cost of running this place no doubt far exceeds what opening it to the public could possibly support. Should something happen to the owner of this pet project or his fortune, what happens to the collection? Natural disaster hits and damages the place, then what? By all indications we're talking many thousands of exotic animals, you can't just assimilate that easily. The place purportedly has more big cats than entire zoological associations. What do you do with all of them? You cannot possibly hope to find homes for them without potentially spreading them worldwide... It's hoarding on an astronomical scale.
 
PossumRoach said:
That’s assuming that it will be open to the public.
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Well and for the staff that would have to be hired and any changes for amenities and accessibility, opening it to the public in the event of a financial issue wouldn't cut it even as a last resort. You'd also be heavily betting on the public being willing to visit after being snubbed, while simultaneously opening up the facility for criticism. Heck of a gamble for a potential contingency plan.
 
Zz123 said:
I believe Nuremberg Zoo prioritized protecting their reputation over animal welfare. It’s easier for them to kill the baboons and end the issue, using the polished excuse of caring for animal welfare. How truly disgusting.
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Sorry, but that is complete nonsense...
There would be literally no backlash for sending animals to Vantara, because not many people would know and the idea of a facility like Vantara sounds really pleasing to the public. The opposite can be said about culling of animals, especially in Germany, where the anti-zoo lobby is pretty strong.
 
Kharzo said:
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense...
There would be literally no backlash for sending animals to Vantara, because not many people would know and the idea of a facility like Vantara sounds really pleasing to the public. The opposite can be said about culling of animals, especially in Germany, where the anti-zoo lobby is pretty strong.
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If You dauble in illegal wildlife trade, involved in politics literal and corruption financially and business-wise, ignore international exotic welfare, veterinary and species legislation ..., there is a Huge NO GO for sending any animals or plants for that matter to any given place.

There are big questions surrounding their import/export paperwork and clearly the numbers they exhibit far outweigh a regular private breeding facility. Plus look at the damn place ..., their exhibits are largely "cages' and are a far cry from any state of the art ex situ conservation breeding facility.

Conclusion: no WAZA, or association affiliated zoos should ever deal going forward with the Ventara private breeding farm.... Period!!!
 
Kharzo said:
There would be literally no backlash for sending animals to Vantara, because not many people would know (...)
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You seem to have forgotten that one of the most relevant critical newspaper articles about Vantara was published by the Süddeutsche Zeitung (SZ), a major GERMAN newspaper. Which happens to be quite critical of zoos and is thus popular among the anti-zoo lobby in Germany. Therefore, both the anti-zoo lobby, German media and relevant German zoo associations such as the VdZ are very much aware of Vantara; a backslash would have been unevitable for Nuremberg Zoo. In regard to sending the baboons to India or culling them locally, they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. As for animal culling: In this regard, German zoos fall between the hard-nosed Scandinanvian zoo approach and the reticent Southern European zoos. Nuremberg Zoo in particular has openly killed and fed surplus wild ungulates to their carnivores for years.
 
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I suppose there's a big difference between german and czech public. If you talk about Vantara in czech groups dedicated to zoos or to just anyone to be honest, they think it's a nice place and there's nothing wrong with it, even if you show them the negative side of it. People here believe that if you have the money, you should be allowed to do anything you want with it. Also, czech people love private petting zoo and such, so they don't really care about animal welfare that much. I critized Vantara on socials a few times and it did not go well. For example, an employee at the private zoo Zájezd told me there's nothing wrong with Vantara, it's a top-tier facility and that it gets criticized only because it belongs to rich people.
And in Czechia, getting animals from shady sources is unfortunately quite normal actually. So people here don't care. Or they say they do, but they don't.
It's probably caused by the history of the country. People here loved to keep and breed animals for literally centuries and it stayed like that to this very day. Also, czech people feel very opressed whenever there's someone telling them they should not do something - again, because of our past. I guess that's what happens when you are under USSR for decades and after hundreds of years of actually not having your own and unique national identity.
So from czech point of view - sending the animals to Vantara would lead to smaller consequences than culling them and then feeding them to the lions...
Also, we are talking about the general public. Not people working or being interested in the industry. Of course, EAZA and WAZA would care. But the general public? Probably not so much.
Sure, here on this forum we all know it's not a good place by any means, but we actively search for more information about it, so we know what's this all about.
 
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merlin said:
For example, an employee at the private zoo Zájezd told me there's nothing wrong with Vantara, it's a top-tier facility and that it gets criticized only because it belongs to rich people.
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I dont think that Zájezd is your typical Czech zoo so their opinion doesnt represent our zoo industry. It´s an animal dealer first and a zoo only second. Vantara is one of their customers so of course they wont critize it.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
If You dauble in illegal wildlife trade, involved in politics literal and corruption financially and business-wise, ignore international exotic welfare, veterinary and species legislation ..., there is a Huge NO GO for sending any animals or plants for that matter to any given place.

There are big questions surrounding their import/export paperwork and clearly the numbers they exhibit far outweigh a regular private breeding facility. Plus look at the damn place ..., their exhibits are largely "cages' and are a far cry from any state of the art ex situ conservation breeding facility.

Conclusion: no WAZA, or association affiliated zoos should ever deal going forward with the Ventara private breeding farm.... Period!!!
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Yes totally agree... Do you know whether any EAZA zoo has collaborated with them? Or is there a general no-collaboration policy?
 
PossumRoach said:
India’s supreme court orders inquiry into giant zoo run by son of Asia’s richest person

Let’s see how this goes. Will this be a nothing burger or will something actually happen? If something is to happen, will it just be a slap on the wrist for little Anant?
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Given the stated statistics are a whopping 150,000 individuals of over 2,000 species, I'm extremely interested to see how this plays out. That is a lot of animals to just be held with apparently almost zero real public/external oversight.
 
I wonder whether collaboration in sending surplus elephant bulls to Vantara would be more productive? The elephant is revered in India, and even private persons are likely to care about an elephant more than on average animal.
 
An article on the subject: No violations at Vantara, India's top court rules

Personally I find it incredibly hard to believe a zoo of that magnitude that has reportedly had very little outside oversight gets a completely clean slate. Tens of thousands of animals and you're telling me they were all acquired legally and being kept fully within regulations? At a near completely private facility no less? Can't say I'm sold.
 
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