ITV 3 part series; London Zoo

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Pertinax

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15+ year member
I found this very interesting, despite it following in the footsteps of many other recent T.V documentaries and series on regional zoos, and there's usually one on ZSL about every ten years. But it provides a good update on the current happenings there.

This first programme focused largely on the Gorillas as there were good stories here- the pregnancy and illness/death of male 'Yeboah'. They certainly didn't hide anything from the camera and it was quite graphic- seeing him sitting up dead and then lugged out in a blanket and on the PM table would not have been shown on TV some years back I think.

The Bird section and the opening of the new Rainforest exhibit came in for a fair amount attention too. I couldn't work out why the King Vulture's egg wasn't taken for artificial incubation, but my guess is it was because the birds defended it vigourously so it wasn't possible.

Overall it was well done I thought and an honest and open treatment of events, particularly the Gorillas. The Zoo deserves credit too for allowing such an honest look at events as they unfolded. I had two small niggles; 1. the number of times they said it would be the first Gorilla birth at London in 22 years(at least six or seven references?) and 2. the Vet lady perpetuating the myth that gorilla 'Bobby' had never seen 'open sky' before coming to London (he certainly had as he spent two years on Bristol's gorilla island) but presumably she believes the propaganda her own PR department puts out!

Next week the focus may well be more on Whipsnade, and possibly a filmed elephant birth too.
 
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I also enjoyed the first episode, and agree that it was impressive to see how open they were about difficult events. I think next week might have a little bit more in about Whipsnade, and the third episode will be looking at ZSL's conservation work. There's a page on the ZSL website here:
Behind the scenes of ITV1 documentary 'The Zoo'
 
Pertinax said:
The Zoo deserves credit too for allowing such an honest look at events as they unfolded. I had two small niggles; 1. the number of times they said it would be the first Gorilla birth at London in 22 years(at least six or seven references?) and 2. the Vet lady perpetuating the myth that gorilla 'Bobby' had never seen 'open sky' before coming to London (he certainly had as he spent two years on Bristol's gorilla island) but presumably she believes the propaganda her own PR department puts out!

Next week the focus may well be more on Whipsnade, and possibly a filmed elephant birth too.
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I think they should get you to right the narration script.;) For the gorillas at least.
 
I noticed that they no longer refer to just London Zoo and Whipsnade, it was always ZSL London Zoo and ZSL Whipsnade, which started to get on my nerves after a while.
 
In 2007, both zoos changed their names to publicise ZSL's role. London Zoo got 'ZSL' added to its name, and Whipsnade Wild Animal Park became ZSL Whipsnade Zoo. Though they're only occasionally used by the public, PR staff make sure to use their full names at every opportunity (which can often seem pointless).
 
After watching tonights episode with the elephant calf, a few things struck me as odd.

Obviously, 'ZSL' [:p] Whipsnade still choose free contact instead of protected contact with their elephants, is there a particular reason. I know a change could not happen overnight, but all other UK zoos have managed to slowly move towards the more accepted protected contact over time.

How necessary was it to really chain the female up as well? They say it was necessary to separate her and chain her up so there'd be no danger to the calf - but is this common practice in other zoos? Do Chester do this, for example, or any others that breed elephants? It just seemed rather odd, and it might happen but I've never heard of it. And, if say Chester don't do it, how come they have had a good track record with successful births (ie. not being trampled).

(Chester is my example since, other than Twycross, it is the only zoo I can think of that breeds Asian elephants and I think Chester have bred more?)
 
I've enjoyed the two parts shown so far very much. The most realistic portrayal for TV I've seen so far.

The Elephant birth, I must admit that even as a Herper (more inclined to see the greater good, conservation cause and be less touchy over stuff) I kindof felt that it was awfully lonely. Yeboah was with his keepers always, they were permitted to be close to him in their attempts to help him. I felt like it was uncomfortable that she was not only isolated from her group, but not even the keepers could be present. Making it more of a shock when they had to dash in and interrupt her flow immediately after birth.

With tortoises for instance, laying is accompanied by an almost trancelike state, even when it is important to remove the eggs rapidly, I have always taken the greatest of care to allow the animal to continue in her ritual, moving her as little as possible to let her feel the nest surface and continue her methodical burying.

Obviously, for all that I know female Elephants may move away from their main group when birthing to avoid crowding etc. Maybe the dangers at the point of birth are simply that great that the interruption is necessary in exactly that way. Maybe female Elephants go into a state during labour where she would have been relatively oblivious to the leg lifting and interruption.
I simply don't know and I think the average person would probably see that as more shocking than I did, could have had a little more explicit explanation for it.
 
I'm no expert, but...

... the whole elephant handling seemed very strange to me. Firstly I was a little shocked by how much contact there was between the elephants and the keepers, given that most zoos are now using protected contact (and then there was the stroking of komodo dragons... :eek:) and considering how much public outcry there is along the lines of "Poor animals locked up for human entertainment!" every time there's a news article about zoos, I was surprised to watch the elephant demonstration.

As for the birth, I'd like to know the rationale for tethering the elephant. It seemed to me that had she not been tethered, maybe she would have naturally stepped away from the calf after the birth and then turned back to it, whereas being chained meant that she didn't have anywhere to go. I thought it strange that the keepers came in from behind her. Again, I'm no expert, but it seemed that they maybe surprised her, and had they not rushed in and left her to her own devices and not tethered, she would have been a lot calmer and the whole thing not been such an emergency.

The thing that's struck me most about this series is how much intervention there is by the keepers, be it rushing in to the vultures (and I also wonder why the egg wasn't replaced with a dummy egg and incubated earlier), digging for komodo dragon eggs, or stepping in to handle the newborn elephant calf.
 
Maisie said:
As for the birth, I'd like to know the rationale for tethering the elephant. It seemed to me that had she not been tethered, maybe she would have naturally stepped away from the calf after the birth and then turned back to it, whereas being chained meant that she didn't have anywhere to go. I thought it strange that the keepers came in from behind her. Again, I'm no expert, but it seemed that they maybe surprised her, and had they not rushed in and left her to her own devices and not tethered, she would have been a lot calmer and the whole thing not been such an emergency.
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Those were my thoughts too. It all looked very unnatural and made for uncomfortable viewing.
I also agree about the handling demonstration that had touches of the circus about it. I remember watching a training session at Twycross when people clapped at the end as though it had been a performance put on for visitors. Incidentally, I saw Karishma, last night's new mother, when she was just a few days old, one of the first baby elephants I'd ever seen (along with their other new baby at the time whose name I've forgotten at the moment).
 
The chaining protocol seems to be adopted for many first-time elephant mothers because of the risk to harm coming to the calf . Several new-borns have been killed by their inexperienced mother - I think this initially happened with Thi at Chester though she now gives birth naturally with the herd . I think that when Karishma was born her mother was also tethered - I also saw the 2 babies at Twycross when very young .

I stll found the birth process very uncomfortable to watch because of the restriction put on Karishma and the manner of the intervention once the baby was born . I did see the pair of them a few weeks later and all seemed fine . I wonder if the more experienced elephant mothers in the Whipsnade herd are allowed to give birth naturally within the herd - I certainly hope so .
 
Bele said:
I think that when Karishma was born her mother was also tethered - I also saw the 2 babies at Twycross when very young .

I stll found the birth process very uncomfortable to watch because of the restriction put on Karishma and the manner of the intervention once the baby was born . I did see the pair of them a few weeks later and all seemed fine . I wonder if the more experienced elephant mothers in the Whipsnade herd are allowed to give birth naturally within the herd - I certainly hope so .
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It is certainly normal practise at some zoos with first time mothers. Both females Tonzi and Mimbu at Twycross were chained for the births of Karishma and Tara. I don't know if the more recent Twycross birth by AI to 'Noorjahan' was similar, but it was posted on here by a reliable source that she initially attacked the baby which is why it developed poorly to start with. That probably made Whipsnade even more cautious too.

I didn't like seeing Karishma give birth like that either but can understand the safety aspect. Also she didn't seem to be allowed to examine or clean it herself, immediately after the birth, it seemed to be whisked out of her reach initially. I don't know if the more experienced mothers in this group are treated the same.

I don't think the recent calves at Sydney were born like this, although they were all to first time mothers, they seemed to be allowed a more natural situation and the cows weren't(?) tethered. The calf that was thought to be dead was born outdoors to an untethered mother. Not sure about Melbourne's.

This week's commentary bloop- that the new calf will have to leave eventually as all the young females in the group are his halfsisters- sadly there's only one at present. But on the plus side they were very open about the Herpes Virus deaths.
 
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The programme also glossed over the problem of surplus zoo-born elephants bulls by stating that the calf would eventually move on to be a new herd bull - hopefully he will but that is far from certain .
 
Probably too complicated an issue for them to tackle. Its also a common description on websites etc for the future of many (surplus) males of various species born in zoos.

'He will eventually become a breeding male at another Zoo' ;)

I also noticed in the programme that 'ZSL London Zoo' have finally got a couple(two?) of female Hunting Dogs too- interestingly from Port Lympne. It does seem as if H/PL and ZSL have rather better relations than in the past.
 
Does anyone know why [and I'm sure there is a good reason] Karishma isn't still at Twycross where she was born, with her mother?
 
I thought they had problems handling her and Whipsnade had more experience, but I may be wrong.
 
Gigit said:
I thought they had problems handling her and Whipsnade had more experience, but I may be wrong.
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Yes , she was considered to be disruptive to the herd and difficult to handle , the keepers at Whipsnade did not appear to have any problems with her though . At least she has had a chance to mate ( if not give birth ) naturally , her half-sister at Twycross is now pregnant by A.I. as shown on a Vets programme on Channel 4 tonight .
 
By sending Karishma to Whipsnade werent they breaking the rules by splitting up a mother and her female calf?, wasnt very comfortable at the sight of Karishma being chained while giving berth, however for the well being of the calf at a first time birth it was justified. regarding the elephant display at Whipsnade being described as circus like, I would disagree with this, for as I remember the elephants on Sir Robert Fossetts CIRCUS were ridden by attractive ladies in fishnet tights and spangly costumes, not blokes in green tee shirts!!!
 
TARZAN said:
By sending Karishma to Whipsnade werent they breaking the rules by splitting up a mother and her female calf?,
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Yes, its definately against the guidelines so it must have been pretty important that Karishma was moved to a different environment. I think the Whipsnade regime of free contact must mean the elephants are far more strictly disciplined for their daily walks and demonstrations than they are at Twycross, so Karishma was pretty quickly brought into line.

If that is pretty much the extent of their 'circus-style' demonstration performances then I think a few minutes per day spent obeying commands to demonstrate their flexibility,( e.g.the 'standup' is used to demonstrate their reach) is quite acceptable and nothing like 'circus life' 24/7. Working elephants in SE Asia spend far more time doing 'unnatural' activities.
 
Maisie said:
As for the birth, I'd like to know the rationale for tethering the elephant. It seemed to me that had she not been tethered, maybe she would have naturally stepped away from the calf after the birth and then turned back to it, whereas being chained meant that she didn't have anywhere to go. I thought it strange that the keepers came in from behind her. Again, I'm no expert, but it seemed that they maybe surprised her, and had they not rushed in and left her to her own devices and not tethered, she would have been a lot calmer and the whole thing not been such an emergency.
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The problem is they can never know how a first time mother is going to react to a birth in a captive situation. In some cases they are surrounded by other members of their family group which 'help' and the whole thing is all very calm. But remember in this case Karishma(from Twycross) is an outsider to the Whipsnade herd and does not have any 'family' there so maybe that's one reason no other herd members were left with her for the birth, or that she had to give birth in solitary like that.

Your description of how because she was chained she was unable to move away and then turn back to examine her newborn was very true, but on the other hand she could then have immediately become very excited and trampled it. They would have been powerless to intervene then. Some new mothers have immediately kicked their calves, either killing or injuring them. (I believe Thi at Chester kicked her first calf against the wall, resulting in its death.) Another first-timer, Noorjahan at Twycross, was aggressive to her newborn calf last year and that will have been in the Whipsnade keepers minds and made them doubly cautious in this case I think.

It wasn't an ideal birthing scenario but I can see why they did it as it did guarantee the calf's safety.
 
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