Javan Rhinoceros in zoos
- Thread starter ThylacineAlive
- Start date
I'm sure they are taking good physical care of him, but they are doing a crappy job of promoting Sumatran rhino conservation. I guess that the whole project is basically dead, at least any real conservation value that it had.
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Its possible L.A. zoo don't display 'Harapan' because there is little hope of acquiring a partner for him, so his solitary status may be something of an embarassment to them? It seems the best thing for him longerterm might be repatriation to Sumatra if he is needed for any future breeding situation there.
Meanwhile his sister 'Suci' at Cincinatti must hold the key to the longerterm future with this species in the US. If they can breed from her, there is slight hope, otherwise, it must now be regarded a failure.
I don't believe there are any Javan Rhino masquerading as Indian Rhinos in zoos in less developed Countries, but its a nice idea.
Meanwhile his sister 'Suci' at Cincinatti must hold the key to the longerterm future with this species in the US. If they can breed from her, there is slight hope, otherwise, it must now be regarded a failure.
I don't believe there are any Javan Rhino masquerading as Indian Rhinos in zoos in less developed Countries, but its a nice idea.
Just for the record, zoological work in Burma (or Myanmar, for people that prefer that name) is done with some frequency by westerners. Sure there's some red tape but it really isn't much harder than in some other southeast Asian countries and as long as you're not well known for being active in politics, it's actually reasonably straight forward to visit most regions. For the most remote regions, finding a way to get there (transport) can prove to be as difficult as getting the permits. Even before the recent opening of the country, it wasn't anything like North Korea. The person who reported the fairly recent pink-headed duck sightings was far from sure about them and later surveys by very experienced ornithologists, including Jonathan Eames, failed to find any evidence of its survival. That doesn't mean it's gone for certain, but it does mean that the present evidence points in that direction. There may well be some interesting things still hiding in the Burmese jungles but the region is not as "completely unknown" as it appears some believe. Though I fear the chance for rhinos in Burma is tiny, it would be great if it performed a 'Gurney's pitta' -- a bird once believed to have a population of about 20 specimens in Thailand, the true population is now known to be about a thousand times greater because of discoveries in Burma in the last decade.
by the way: the Sumatran rhino project that formed the basis for the ones in zoos in USA, where did they originate? Were all the Sumatran/West Malay D. s. sumatrensis? None of the the even rarer Bornean D. s. harrissoni?
They were all the Sumatran race. No Bornean animals were involved.
However I believe semen from the single 'harrissoni' captive male in Borneo has now been used to try and AI the female(Sumatran race) at Cincinatti Zoo.
I think that's a horrible idea.
They're trying a captive breeding for the Borneo Rhinoceros.
Borneo Rhino Alliance ? BORA is an NGO which is dedicated to uniting partners in a concerted campaign to save Borneo's Sumatran Rhino from extinction.
The female in the picture link posted earlier is part of it but it didn't work out for her.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
The sad thing is that there was a time when both species could have been established in captivity. In the years after WWII, the population of Sumatran Rhino was probably on a par with that of the Great Indian. Rhinos from the latter species were exported in sufficient numbers for viable pairs to be established, whereas for the Sumatran Rhino they weren't.
I fear that both species will go in my lifetime, as a result of habitat fragmentation (Sumatran), inbreeding (Javan), poaching (both) and lack of public awareness (both).
I agree with David - for LA to have brought that animal back and keep him off exhibit is just plain bonkers.
I fear that both species will go in my lifetime, as a result of habitat fragmentation (Sumatran), inbreeding (Javan), poaching (both) and lack of public awareness (both).
I agree with David - for LA to have brought that animal back and keep him off exhibit is just plain bonkers.
IanRRobinson
Well-Known Member
Which seems a debatable strategy. Has anyone looked at the DNA of the Sumatran rhino? It wouldn't surprise me to know that harrisoni, certainly was pretty distinct.
Incidentally - is there any way that DnA from museum animals might be used for cloning? I know it's a wild shot in the dark, but the Sumatran rhino is in dire straits and thinking outside the box might just turn out to be essential.
There *is* however one major difference between the cases you cite and this case - both subspecies of Sumatran Rhino are critically endangered and may not have sufficient genetic diversity to survive. Therefore it is logically better to maximise the genepool, and thus odds of saving the species - even if this means potentially sacrificing pure subspecific Sumatran Rhinos. Would you rather we kept trying to only breed pure individuals of each subspecies, even to the point of them becoming extinct? Naturally we should try to do this too - but having a backup plan to save the overall species is very prudent.
Conversely, the examples you cite are all subspecies which are either extinct, or nearly so, whose parent species - although threatened or endangered - are in better general shape.
Actually Javan rhinos have never been kept in zoos in high numbers; very few Javan rhinos have ever been kept in zoos.
I believe the total of authenticiated Javan Rhinoceros to have been held in captivity stands at 22 individuals - however, approximately half of these were held in collections within their original native range.
TeaLovingDave/Tim May- I stand corrected on the Javan Rhinos once beling in captivity in high numbers. They still were once kept in captivity. Though, it appears the the numbers could be higher as they were often confused with Indian Rhinos.* The last confirmed Javan Rhino in captivity at the Adelaide Zoo in Australia was listed as an Indian Rhinoceros. I find it interesting that the subspecies of Sumatran Rhino most prevelant in zoos before the captive breeding program begun is the only one that is Extinct (unless some survived in Burma, or Myanmar, as already talked about).
*Interesting fact- The first time I saw an Indian Rhinoceros at the Bronx Zoo, I thought it was a Javan Rhinoceros.
I was very young, though, and they didn't have a lable for the animal, just a sign that showed all the rhino species. I must have seen the Javan Rhino first and, since they look so much like Indians, I assumed it was a Javan. I went on thinking that for over a year until the zoo updating its website (for once
)
*Interesting fact- The first time I saw an Indian Rhinoceros at the Bronx Zoo, I thought it was a Javan Rhinoceros.
I was very young, though, and they didn't have a lable for the animal, just a sign that showed all the rhino species. I must have seen the Javan Rhino first and, since they look so much like Indians, I assumed it was a Javan. I went on thinking that for over a year until the zoo updating its website (for once)
Indeed, in his book The Rhinoceros in Captivity (1998) L. C. Rookmaaker mentions twenty-two recorded specimens of captive Javan rhinos.
This total includes eight rhinos kept in Java, rhinos that died soon after capture and one that died on route to Europe. Of these twenty-two, according to Rookmaaker, only four survived to be exhibited in zoos (London, Adelaide & Calcutta).
Wrong!
Unless you've got some pretty good evidence (better than your Stellar's Sea Cow claims) stop making spurious claims and outlandish extrapolations. Yes I know there's a couple of celebrated cases of wrong identification but how do you know that those cases are not all that there are? Surely if there were any more they'd arguably have been outed by now?
There's nothing wrong being interested and enthusiastic about cryptozoology and near extinct animals (I am myself) but you've got to filter the information out there and not just force every little scrap of evidence you find into supporting your pet theories and hopes -otherwise your paradigm gets distorted to the point of absurdity and the resulting lack of credibility means any good evidence/points you have/make is drowned out by the bad and nobody listens.
Please give serious thought about making half as many posts that are twice as good. I'm finding it hard work trawling through your posts which are swamping some interesting threads. It's great to see your enthusiasm and you're obviously smart, you just need to scrutinise your posts a bit more before you press the "submit reply" button.
Feels good to get that off my chest.
Wrong!
Unless you've got some pretty good evidence (better than your Stellar's Sea Cow claims) stop making spurious claims and outlandish extrapolations. Yes I know there's a couple of celebrated cases of wrong identification but how do you know that those cases are not all that there are? Surely if there were any more they'd arguably have been outed by now?
There's nothing wrong being interested and enthusiastic about cryptozoology and near extinct animals (I am myself) but you've got to filter the information out there and not just force every little scrap of evidence you find into supporting your pet theories and hopes -otherwise your paradigm gets distorted to the point of absurdity and the resulting lack of credibility means any good evidence/points you have/make is drowned out by the bad and nobody listens.
Please give serious thought about making half as many posts that are twice as good. I'm finding it hard work trawling through your posts which are swamping some interesting threads. It's great to see your enthusiasm and you're obviously smart, you just need to scrutinise your posts a bit more before you press the "submit reply" button.
Feels good to get that off my chest.
Sorry
. I'm just giving out theories and giving out info. as I aquire it. I just mentioned Steller Sea Cows, I never gave any evidence to it. I thought I said that I didn't know much of the reports and that I just used it as an example but if I didn't, I did now. I like participating in these interesting threads and adding in my say in the conversation. I already got grilled pretty good by Chlidonias and jbnbsn99 on the Cryptozoology thread about just posting without any sources to back up my info. On here, though, I'm just asking questions more then stating facts as I'm trying to learn more about the subject. That's my style and how I learn. I've mostly posted possible theories and asked what others think as well as my own opinions. I'm not trying to drone on or make a topic boring, I'm just trying to further my knowledge as I am young and have much to learn. When I did say things on this thread (with the exception of what you just corrected me on along with Tim May and TeaLovingDave) I thought I backed up my statements. Especially so with the Bornean Rhino breeding as I posted the site I got all my information on.Scary (but cool) location you live at, my friend
Amsterdam held a Javan Rhino from 1867 to 1873 - I assume, from what you say, that Rookmaaker was either unaware of this individual, or unconvinced as to whether it was truly Javan.
Rookmaaker was certainly aware of this individual but unconvinced that it really was a Javan.
The list of Javan rhinos in Rookmaaker's work does not include the specimen in Artis (Amsterdam).
However, in the Indian rhinoceros chapter he lists an Indian rhinoceros that was in Artis (Amsterdam) from 19th June 1864 until 21st March 1873.
He adds that Nieuwendijk stated it was possibly a Javan but Rookmaker is clearly doubtful. (He also adds that the date of arrival is uncertain and some sources, including Nieuwendijk, state it arrived in 1867; the date range 1867 - 1873 agrees with the dates you mention so this must surely be the animal to which you refer.)
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1. 'Hundreds of Rhinos' did not die in captive breeding attempts. There were several in the US zoos, two old females at Port Lympne and the eight or so that died from the same related illness in the disaster at the captive holding facility at Sungai Dusun in Malaysia/(?)Sumatra, and later the older male'Torgamba' at Way Kambas. That makes a total of less than twenty animals, a very bad and unnacceptable loss but not in hundreds.
2. There are now no other Sumatran rhinos in holding facilities in Sumatra apart from at Way Kambas, where the only male is Suci's older brother 'Andalas'. Given your interest in these animals generally, I am surprised you aren't aware of that fact. As there are no unrelated males available in Sumatra, that is why Cincinatti have considered AI from the Bornean male 'Kertam'- I don't know if they have actually done it or not though. Of course they can still try breeding from the pair in Borneo as well and any AI attempts on Suci would not impede on that.
The two are subspecies of one single species-the Sumatran Rhino and this measure may be taken as there is no other option with the animals in such extreme low numbers in captivity .
3. Please, do as Shorts suggested and do some basic research on your facts as it will make your posts more interesting and credible.
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