Keeping Reptiles and Amphibians.

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Ara

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When it comes to keeping exotic animals of all kinds, Australians live under just about the most draconian restrictions on the planet. There are sound (and not-so-sound) reasons for this.

Reptiles are included in this. Private individuals in Australia cannot legally keep foreign reptiles (and until not too long ago could keep very few native reptiles.) Needless to say there is alleged to be a thriving "underground" trade in exotic reptiles. It would be far more sensible for the government to legalise and regulate the trade.

My hobby is aviculture, not herpetology; nevertheless I'm interested in all aspects of animal keeping and so out of curiosity I recently bought a U.S. reptile magazine (called, simply, "Reptiles.") The advertising section made my jaw drop - it seems like hundreds of Americans are involved in keeping and breeding snakes and lizards! Some people it seems are making a good living out of specialising in a single species (such as the Bearded Dragon - an Australian lizard.) Others are breeding colour mutations of giant pythons and there are companies dealing in various types of frogs (poison arrow frogs for example.) One company described itself as the largest breeder of "hot" herps on the planet (hot apparently meaning venomous.)

Maybe you all knew this already and I'm just naive, but it was an eye-opener for me!

What's the situation like in the U.K. and Europe?
 
Ara I too am amazed at some of the species which are offered or sale on some American reptile websites, I have seen some VERY difficult to get species (in Australia) of Aussie reptile for sale over there that are almost impossible to get even within Australia its self.
 
At least the Australia government has the sense to make restrictions for exotic reptiles. In Florida, where for the first time this year private reptiles owners face regulation, we have iguanas eating all vegetation, pythons eating alligators, saltwater crocodiles hybridizing with endangered American Crocodiles, and monkeys running wild. But I have friends that enjoy keeping their spitting cobra.
 
@Ara: you bring up an excellent point in terms of available exotics in Australia, and this is something that extends beyond zoological gardens. In North America there are almost 220 recognized AZA zoos, along with literally hundreds of roadside attractions. On top of that there are many lax laws in U.S. States and Canadian Provinces when it comes to ownership of exotic creatures. I've visited pet stores in North America that would boggle your mind, as the array of reptiles and amphibians is staggering. I can distinctly recall (although this would no longer be allowed) a pair of chimpanzees for sell in a pet store in Edmonton, Alberta. That was twenty years ago, but even today the sheer number of reptile species for sale from private owners is bewildering. You mentioned bearded dragons, and those are a dime a dozen up here.
 
okapikpr said:
... saltwater crocodiles hybridizing with endangered American Crocodiles...
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Do you have any info to back this up? I am aware of the large number of feral species running rampant in Florida, but I was not aware of salties on the loose.
 
Ara said:
Maybe you all knew this already and I'm just naive, but it was an eye-opener for me!

What's the situation like in the U.K. and Europe?
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Pretty extensive, although the US leads the way. You can attend huge herp trade shows (more so in continental Europe) which you can obtain virtually anything. Specialist reptile shops sprout up in all major cities and you can even purchase a fair selection of herps and inverts in the larger garden centres (they tend to have an attached pet shop and only keep the more common captive-bred species). Large shops may even have 'display' animals not necessarily for sale like large boas and small crocodilians. There are regulations on threatened species, but like always dealers have a way of getting around them. There are probably more monkey-tailed skinks and sanzinia in private hands then in zoos. And both of these were priority species until recently.

Living in the UK gives me the opportunity to keep my own collection of herps, which at this stage are restricted to 2 hognose snakes (American species). Something I would never have been able to obtain living in Australia...
 
@Ara: Can just agree with what tetrapod wrote above: many European countries, especially the Czech Republic, The Netherlands, Germany, Poland, France and Austria are big into aquaristics and terraristics. Although the EU and each of the federal states of a country (like Hessen in Germany, whose ban on "dangerous" animals is the current, yet very controversial climax) are often very anal when it comes to regulations (like husbandry permits, certificate of good conduct to be able to keep a Burmese python etc.) most is just the snarling of an in terms of executive and preventive force toothless paper tiger, that nevertheless makes it more and more difficult for serious breeders and interested, responsible private owners to keep animals. With the right connections and enough money, You can more or less easily get what You want in terms of arthropods,amphibians, reptiles, fish, birds and smaller mammals (including sloths, kinkajous, vischacas etc.). While American breeders favour more or less the same species (however, also having access to tigers, bobcats, spotted hyenas or African civets and bongos to offer...), in terms of reptiles, colour and pattern morphs are much more important to them (Fluorescent Reverse Okeetee Cornsnake or High Orange Gila Monsters, anyone?).

Funny enough, Australian reptiles (and parrots), like Bearded and Dwarf Bearded Dragons or Blue-Tongued skinks are among the most popular species in the reptile pet trade...
http://www.kingsnake.com/
exotichobbyist - the online community for the exotic and small animal hobbyist.
Site has been suspended
World Exotics Inc., Exotic Animals From Around The World
http://www.api4animals.org/321.htm
Exotic Pet Co - broker/breeder of exotic pets
 
tetrapod said:
Do you have any info to back this up? I am aware of the large number of feral species running rampant in Florida, but I was not aware of salties on the loose.
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I dont know if any of the data has been published and no salties have been found in Florida to my knowledge. I had a professor a few years back tell us the story of a friend of his recently doing research and collecting blood samples on American Crocodiles. In DNA analysis, they found some of the samples were different from many of the American Crocodiles and had some similiarity to those of Saltwater Crocodiles. But there are plenty of feral caimans in the Everglades too!!
 
okapikpr said:
I dont know if any of the data has been published and no salties have been found in Florida to my knowledge. I had a professor a few years back tell us the story of a friend of his recently doing research and collecting blood samples on American Crocodiles. In DNA analysis, they found some of the samples were different from many of the American Crocodiles and had some similiarity to those of Saltwater Crocodiles. But there are plenty of feral caimans in the Everglades too!!
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Interesting... I found a website through a link on wikipedia yesterday that showed the occurance of ferals living in Florida. No mention of salties but did mention the spec caimans.

There are alot of salty crossed with Siamese and Cubans in the croc farms in south-east Asia, which is of particular concern if there is ever an escape. I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't already happened and there is a strain of 'supercroc' already causing a genetic drift to the local populations. It probably also casts some doubt on the purity of any of these species, sourced from this region, living in captivity.
 
Australian authorities are very keen to prevent Australia from becoming another Florida (in terms of escaped exotics).

Too late - American Red-eared Slider turtles (terrapins?) have been showing up in quite a few Australian waterways. Also, a couple of years ago an Alligator Snapping turtle scared the hell out of some workmen when it suddenly came at them in an enclosed stormwater drain in Sydney's eastern suburbs. (It was thought to have been living on rats.)
 
Ara said:
. Also, a couple of years ago an Alligator Snapping turtle scared the hell out of some workmen when it suddenly came at them in an enclosed stormwater drain in Sydney's eastern suburbs. (It was thought to have been living on rats.)
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That turtle now lives at Gosford.
 
wasn't that one originally a young one stolen from a reptile park?

Several years ago a common snapper turned up in a pond in the Auckland Domain, many years after being stolen from Ti Point Reptile Park.
 
Apparently. The story I heard was that a group of them "went missing " from the Reptile park when they were still small. This one was found in the drains around the Eastern suburbs like Ara said. Maybe there is some still out there.
 
boof said:
Apparently. The story I heard was that a group of them "went missing " from the Reptile park when they were still small. This one was found in the drains around the Eastern suburbs like Ara said. Maybe there is some still out there.
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If even half of the anecdotes are true, there are lots of things out there!
 
yep. Someone should go and grab them and the Lithgow panther, the mainland tassie devils and tigers, the paradise parrots,night parrots and bunyips and put them in a zoo. Do you know of any zoos that might take them, Steve?:p
 
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