Killing to fight the killing?

S

Shamwari Voice

Active Member
I've been talking to some people lately about the possible approach to rhino-poaching of poisoning the horn, with the aim of harming or killing the people who use the horns for "medicine" to reduce demand - an idea expressed by Ed Hern earlier this year.

I find it all quite uncomfortable - killing people to stop other killings isn't the kind of conservation approach I want to take - but I know other people feel like nothing else will send such a powerful message.

What do you guys think about it?
 
I am sure I read something about this about a month ago.

There was an article in Rino poaching which made mention of piosened horn being taken by poachers.
 
It maybe a small sacrifice one or two poisonings and the people may be afraid to take it again as they wouldn't know which had been poisoned and which had not. however the reason for all the poaching and myths about magical medical powers is due to lack of education through bad communication. So I really dont think this would be much use. If they are going to put so much man power into knocking all these animals down to insert the poison why dont they just remove the horn?

I agree though killing an innocent person who buys the horn in good faith from the poacher and dies as a result is not the answer. It is the poacher not the poor misinformed purchaser at the end of the chain that should be targeted!
 
Vulpes said:
If they are going to put so much man power into knocking all these animals down to insert the poison why dont they just remove the horn?
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The problem with this approach is that poachers will often kill the hornless rhinos, either out of spite or so they don't unintentionally spend time tracking that same useless-to-them rhino a second time. I spoke to a member of the anti-poaching unit at Shamwari Game Reserve and he said it's not a good solution - also pointing out that it may deter tourists from visiting, and a lot of the reserves rely on tourist income to help fund their anti-poaching efforts and more general conservation work.

I think education in the countries demanding rhino horn is important - it seems to have contributed to a shrinking demand from Yemen - but it requires government committment. The Chinese and Vietnamese governments don't seem willing to do this.

Hence talk of more desperate measures. :(
 
I doubt that poisoning the horn would have any effect. A thousand people in China could die from poisoning, but there'd still be millions of other people willing to buy it.

Secondly, how are you going to poison the whole horn without poisoning the rhino?
 
The Chinese authorities could stop illegal wildlife trade if they really wanted to. One example was the complete and effective stop in trade of civets during the SARS epidemic. Another example was the successful control of domestic poultry trade - an immense task - during major "bird flu" scares.
 
Hix said:
I doubt that poisoning the horn would have any effect. A thousand people in China could die from poisoning, but there'd still be millions of other people willing to buy it.

Secondly, how are you going to poison the whole horn without poisoning the rhino?
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The plan is to inject cyanide (I believe) in to the horn. It apparently should remain in the small area of the horn into which it is injected. When the horn is used for medicinal purposes it is ground up, so not everyone would be affected but there would be no way to tell if you have any in your dose as it will be mixed in. I don't think the aim is to kill people but rather advretise the fact that the horn is being poisoned to try and slow they killing.
 
What's next? Poisoning tiger's penises?

Don't think I'll volunteer for that job:eek:

Are people seriously considering murdering humans as a way to stop poaching?

I am not under-estimating the enormity of the poaching problem [and not just of rhino] and I often advocate looking outside the square - but this is calculated murder. Not like shooting a poacher in a gun battle in the field but murder of the unknowing end-user in a far off country.

As Vulpes has pointed out, the people who use this stuff don't enjoy efficient forms of communication like we do. Most of them will never know that the product has been poisoned. So poisoning won't work too well from that point of view.

As Saola has said, the Chinese government has proved that it can control illegal wildlife trade if it has the will to do so.

Wouldn't it be more effective, and more humane, to redouble efforts at that end?
 
Jeffrey Bonner, President of St Louis Zoo, identified a somewhat surprising ally in the fight against poaching both rhino horns and tiger penises... viagra!

The aim of both traditional "medicines" is to improve male virility. If end-users can be shown that there is a demonstrably effective alternative, demand for rhino horn and tiger penis should fall.

Again, this requires education and attitudinal change - the support for TCM over scientific medicine is still, unfortunately, huge.
 
I have just been discussing this idea with some of the people here and we have come to the conclusion that this scheme must have been devised by Ingrid Newkirk - the looney libber who founded Peta and who values animal life above human life.

My staff are all passionate about animals but not one of them could sanction the killing of people in an attempt to foil the killing of animals.

They pointed out that this scheme is unlikely to be effective because (a) the end users would not be likely to be aware of it and (b) the poachers may well be aware of it but would be unlikely to care.

One staff member thought it sad that the well meaning people in South Africa had become so overwhelmed by the enormity of the problem that they had lost their sense of perspective.

There must be a better way!
 
A good point from our Senior Keeper - for this policy to work, the rhino has to be killed anyway.

If there are so few rhinos left in the wild, by the time the word gets around, they'll all be poached.


Thinking pro-actively - some years ago a Queensland government Minister proposed a huge, multi thousand hectare rhino reserve in central Queensland. He was thinking of a reserve so big that it could eventually house scores of rhinos.

ARAZPA was against the idea. I was communicating with Peter Stroud at the time on an entirely different matter. He brought up the rhino proposal in a very emotional manner. His main concern? "They haven't consulted me"!!!!!!

Maybe it's time to revisit such an idea?
 
I don't think education is nessearily the answer either. I know a number of well educated chinese people who continue to use scientifically unproven remedies. They have tols me that they would use rhino horn if they felt the need. This is partly a response of 'spiting the westerners who think they can tell us what to do' attitude. However I think providing an alternative that does actually work, and is less expensive, without lecturing and without a 'we know best' attitude would work.
I like the idea of the rhino reserve in central queensland, it could be extended to elephants as well. However wouldnt that go against the Aussie laws that prohibit keeping animals in a private reserve?
 
I hate the idea of having huge reserves for rhino/elephants/tigers in Australia. Sure I want to see these animals saved as much as the next person but should it really come at the expense of our own native flora and fauna that will be eaten/trampled/eroded away through the introduction of more large hoofstock?
 
The proposal wasn't for a "private" reserve as such. It would have been open to tourists and would have generated much needed tourist dollars for the central west. A portion of that income could have been channelled back to South Africa to aid rhino conservation there, I guess.

The area that was being proposed already supports large numbers of commercial cattle breeds. The idea was that the rhino would replace them. Rhino feet would be much kinder to the environment than cattle hooves. Native flora has already been well and truly compromised by Prickly Acacia and Buffel grass. So much so that dromedaries are being brought in to try to control the Prickly Acacia.

Would you rather see dromedaries or rhinos out there?
 
Steve Robinson said:
What's next? Poisoning tiger's penises?

Don't think I'll volunteer for that job:eek:

Are people seriously considering murdering humans as a way to stop poaching?

I am not under-estimating the enormity of the poaching problem [and not just of rhino] and I often advocate looking outside the square - but this is calculated murder. Not like shooting a poacher in a gun battle in the field but murder of the unknowing end-user in a far off country.

As Vulpes has pointed out, the people who use this stuff don't enjoy efficient forms of communication like we do. Most of them will never know that the product has been poisoned. So poisoning won't work too well from that point of view.

As Saola has said, the Chinese government has proved that it can control illegal wildlife trade if it has the will to do so.

Wouldn't it be more effective, and more humane, to redouble efforts at that end?
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It often does not get to the point of a gun battle, it is policy in a number of parks that if you see a man with a gun shoot first and ask questions later.
I would much rather see education programs put in place and don't promote the poisoning but I'm not sure how successful education would be. It has been known for decades that rhino horn provides no more aprhodisiac or endurance power than chewing your own finger nails, which is nothing at all. yet the ignorant chinese continue to use it. I find it incredibly frustrating that African rhino are being slaughtered for "traditional" chinese medicines.

I think that a reserve is a good idea. I believe that if the area of land is large enough then the impact on native wildlife will be minimised. Especially if an old cattle station is used. Rhino being a soft footed ungulate will be much less detrimental to the environment than cattle.
 
Jarkari said:
It has been known for decades that rhino horn provides no more aprhodisiac or endurance power than chewing your own finger nails, which is nothing at all.
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Small point - rhino horn is only occassionally used in aphrodisiacs, but it is found in a wide variety of other 'cures'. It's most common use is as an antipyretic

:p

Hix
 
I used one example. In my experience chewing fingernails does not reduce fever either. As you would be aware it is all just keratin, which has no proven medicinal benefits.
 
I think it is less community education and more government education - or convincing - that needs to be done. As Saolo says, the Chinese have proved their ability to curb poaching when the consequences are "serious" enough - it's just that they don't currently want to. I have no idea how we would go about this, though.

The plan is to inject cyanide (I believe) in to the horn. It apparently should remain in the small area of the horn into which it is injected. When the horn is used for medicinal purposes it is ground up, so not everyone would be affected but there would be no way to tell if you have any in your dose as it will be mixed in. I don't think the aim is to kill people but rather advretise the fact that the horn is being poisoned to try and slow they killing.
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The horn doesn't contain any blood vessels, so there would be no way for the cyanide to enter the rhino's system - only that of the consumer. And Ed Hern, at least, is apparently quite willing for this to kill some of them.
 
Shamwari Voice said:
the Chinese have proved their ability to curb poaching when the consequences are "serious" enough - it's just that they don't currently want to.
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I absolutely agree.

BTW, here are two good articles that reflect on that. Different animals, but same problem:

Putin may be the tiger's champion, but China will decide the species' future | Jonathan Watts | Environment | guardian.co.uk

Monkeys, butterflies, turtles? how the pet trade's greed is emptying south-east Asia's forests | Environment | The Observer
 
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