I wonder if a human [ie: a keeper] could beat them as hard as their mothers do to bring them in to line?
Zoo Knoxville Knoxville Zoo elephant keeper killed
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Saro
Well-Known Member
Does it really matter ? The keeper is not the calf's mother and he/she probably should not try to be. That mothers beat their calf's too is not much more than a cheap excuse. Joyce Poole said about this : I don't know how this myth came about. I have never seen elephant calf's being disciplined by their mothers in the wild. It probably developed in zoos and circuses where mentally damaged mothers beat their calf's out of frustration.
Now, she is not generally seen as an animal rights activist but rather an authority on elephants and I would like to believe her in this case !
I very much agree that not all keepers are the same and methods differ greatly. But FC in general is a method with a high potential for abuse while PC clearly is not. I know keepers that rarely ever use any forceful disciplining, but those people that really understand their elephants and know how to communicate with them are rare and hard to find. Too rare for most elephants !
Animals sometimes do terrible things to each other. Elephants sometimes (though rarely) kill each other. Wolves sometimes rip each other to pieces. No one says that because they do this to themselves, it would be acceptable if humans did the same. And certainly not since a safe, violence-free way to care for elephants exists.
@Saro Thx for your insightful comments!
No you cannot and therefore humans use hooks in sensitive areas, which will inflict the same amount of pain or even more upon the elephant.
No you cannot and therefore humans use hooks in sensitive areas, which will inflict the same amount of pain or even more upon the elephant.
Steve, we can't win. None will accept the fact that it has nit been proven that FC is worse than PC, it is simply their opinion that they disguise as facts. I am going to finish here and say that you cannot blame the whole management of elephants under FC just by a few examples in zoos, you have to realise that we don't need to argue about which is better, we just have to agree that whatever management system, the ideal situation is that the elephant is well looked after and enriched in their long lives. You can't judge a book by it's cover.
Steve, we can't win. None will accept the fact that it has not been proven that FC is worse than PC, it is simply their opinion that they disguise as facts. I am going to finish here and say that you cannot blame the whole management of elephants under FC just by a few examples in zoos, you have to realise that we don't need to argue about which is better, we just have to agree that whatever management system, the ideal situation is that the elephant is well looked after and enriched in their long lives. You can't judge a book by it's cover.
Steve, we can't win. None will accept the fact that it has not been proven that FC is worse than PC, it is simply their opinion that they disguise as facts. I am going to finish here and say that you cannot blame the whole management of elephants under FC just by a few examples in zoos, you have to realise that we don't need to argue about which is better, we just have to agree that whatever management system, the ideal situation is that the elephant is well looked after and enriched in their long lives. You can't judge a book by it's cover.
Is it about winning? No it's about elephants. You favour FC, ok. So give us some real arguments why this shold be better than PC? Non of the arguments in favour of PC has been disproven yet. And yes FC might be better for some older elephants used to it, but if you start at 0 PC is the way to go and elephants can be elephants and keepers can survive.
Steve said exactly what I was going to say.
I lived in Sri Lanka working with domestic and wild elephants - whe out treating wild elephants I often saw cow's reprimanding not only their own, but other cow's calves. I will even try to track down a photo I have of one cow kicking her calf for playing to hard with a new born. the calf was thrown onto it's side by the impact and slid for some time. Only to immediately return to it's mother and stand right between her legs.
A keeper can inflict very very little pain with a blunt ankus and every zoo in Australia Uses blunt ankus'. It is simply a reprimand, like shouting. However this is a debate that will probably go on forever.
Steve, we can't win. None will accept the fact that it has nit been proven that FC is worse than PC, it is simply their opinion that they disguise as facts. I am going to finish here and say that you cannot blame the whole management of elephants under FC just by a few examples in zoos, you have to realise that we don't need to argue about which is better, we just have to agree that whatever management system, the ideal situation is that the elephant is well looked after and enriched in their long lives. You can't judge a book by it's cover.
If you feel it is acceptable to use pain, aversives, social isolation, bullying etc to manage an animal in a captive situation, then lie about it to the people who pay your wages when other methods free from these elements exist, then go ahead and continue to feel that way. Nobody will stop you. You'll find many people who are passionate about animals and their welfare are not stating their opinions (or facts) here to 'win'. Instead they are most probably trying to share information about what is going on. The stubbornness you get subjected to probably results from people's complete inability to identify with your morals as it is utterly incomprehensible (to me at least) that there are people who will find reasons to justify causing an animal pain and suffering when we should be doing our out most to ensure it's physical, physiological and psychological well-being at all times.
It isn't 'just a few zoos'. It's any zoo which employs a Free Contact system of working with their eles.
This should have nothing to do with this discussion. Wild animals starve to death, die from dehydration during droughts, freeze to death, get killed by their own or others. Nature can cause suffering in thousands of different ways. Does this mean we should bring wild animals into captivity and deny them access to fresh water or the food they require for a healthy life? I'd like to think you are all intelligent, thinking, passionate people, but I really cannot understand why anyone would look for reasons or ways (and repeatedly fail) to justify this treatment of any species.
Saro
Well-Known Member
I seriously doubt you have touched every ankus in Australia and I also doubt that Australians have reinvented FC ! As I said, old, mostly friendly cows are one side of the story. Young elephants are a totally different one. If you want to work with them in FC, you have to "bring them in line". Dresden and Vienna have shown what that could look like and I have no doubt, every other FC place will do the same, if deemed necessary.
Are we really debating how hard you can hit an elephant ? Does anyone else see something wrong with this ? I have by no means the strength of a walrus, a sea lion or even the harbor seal. They can inflict great pain on each other. That does not mean I have to do the same. I can work with them in a way that involves no physical punishment and I believe that is better for them and better for me. When I learned sea lion training from circus people, hitting was common place. Fortunately, those days are long over now almost anywhere in the world, as there is a much better system.
You said this debate will probably go on forever. I doubt that as well. With every keeper killed or injured and every beating of an elephant filmed on camera, more places will move away from FC. I have no doubt about that !
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Daniel;429207 No you cannot and therefore humans use hooks in sensitive areas said:
Read post #77 by me in this thread. And why do people beat their dog in training?
Did I even indirectly imply FC is better than PC? I don't think so. I just want to defend an elephant management practcie which I have the right to do so.
I will not further comment, it is simply your opinion and interpretation of this form of management. I appreciate the debates tho.
You obviously don't understand the principle of pressure and release - nothing to do with pain.
And who beats their dog to train it? Again, what would that achieve?
This whole discussion is becoming pointless. It seems that animal people [people who have actually had experience with elephants] will make an informed judgement on whether they want to work PC or FC. They should always have the right to make that choice.
It also seems that the people who are most vehemently opposed to FC are people on the outside looking in. They form opinions based on drama and colourful language such as in Linda's posts - not on the reality of the situation.
At the end of the day the keepers should have the choice. Choosing FC doesn't make them monsters any more than choosing PC makes them inadequate keepers.
My last comments on the subject!
Well to be honest there aren't many ankus in Australia. It is illegal to use sharp ankus' on elephants and the animal welfare laws here are strictly enforced by the policies in place in the zoo itself as well as the Animal Welfare Units, I can't speak of foreign zoos. I think you underestimate the strictness of Australia's Government Zoo's, you can barely scratch yourself without it being approved by ten managers (slight exaggeration, but only slight). the only other zoo elephants would be Bullens and I believe Steve would have a pretty good idea about their managment, better than my knowledge anyway. But I have seen how Brenton works with his elephants and you can't doubt the feelings those animals have for him.
Steve is very much right. It is up to the keeper. I personally don't care if I was required to work PC or FC. I would happily work PC if it was how the animals were managed at that insitute. However I have seen first hand the benefits of FC and the impact being moved to PC has had on certain elephants. I have also seen the way two elephants react when they are visited by their old circus owners. They were very happy girls.
Saro
Well-Known Member
In defense of FC (yes) I think keeper safety depends a lot on what yo ask the elephants to do. In my days, the elephants were trained circus tricks and asked to perform a show regularly. Some zoos (much less than in the past fortunately) are still working that way. That opens up great potential for aggression and confrontation. We all know that elephants have good days and bad days (who wouldn't). If you don't ask them to do much more than some simple husbandry behaviors, I would say it is pretty safe (not always, as Knoxville and others have shown). The less you ask them to do, the less they will be tempted to confront you. Some zoos work that way (like Emmen) and do pretty well. Maybe after all it is a matter of avoiding confrontation as much as possible and I have no doubt that there are keepers out there which are sensitive enough to do that. But if your elephant really refuses to do what you ask
and even becomes aggressive (maybe due to social stress in the group or whatever) your range of options in FC becomes pretty limited, if you don't want to loose control totally.
and even becomes aggressive (maybe due to social stress in the group or whatever) your range of options in FC becomes pretty limited, if you don't want to loose control totally.
I try and stay clear of the augments regarding FC vs PC they tend to end in a heated discussion with a number of my friends who work with elephants. I have worked with elephants in the past but only in a limited way but do perhaps have more knowledge than most.
My personal position on any animal handling and training is that I categorically against any (and I mean any) form of corporal punishment of animals. Hitting animals is wrong. Full stop. And can only be defended in cases of life or death situations.
However, as someone who was a zoo manager and had to deal with issues such as health and safety etc I have to say that this debate may soon become academic as the insurance cost of operating open FC may become prohibitively expensive for many zoological collections. It's just the way things are going in the work environment and zoos are no exception.
My personal position on any animal handling and training is that I categorically against any (and I mean any) form of corporal punishment of animals. Hitting animals is wrong. Full stop. And can only be defended in cases of life or death situations.
However, as someone who was a zoo manager and had to deal with issues such as health and safety etc I have to say that this debate may soon become academic as the insurance cost of operating open FC may become prohibitively expensive for many zoological collections. It's just the way things are going in the work environment and zoos are no exception.