Berlin Zoo Knut

CZJimmy said:
P.S. can't believe we haven't had a dedicated Knut thread on zoochat yet!:eek:
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I guess we are too serious zoo-enthusiasts here ;)
 
CZJimmy said:
[

P.S. can't believe we haven't had a dedicated Knut thread on zoochat yet!:eek:
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Knut represents every thing wrong with zoos


Hand rearing
Human imprinting
Brelin zoo enclosure inadequate
Sensationalising a cute white baby bear.
Abandoning 1 year old Polar bear that is dangerous and no longer cute!

His story is as sad as it gets!
 
Ok as usual Im going to throw a spanner in the works...

Knut was probably the best thing that ever happened to polar bears. Millions of people flocked to see him, many of which had not visited a zoo before, to see and learn about the little white bear. Next time they hear about the Polar bears starving on the news due to no sea ice forming they will think of Knut!

its easy not to get caught up about people starving in Africa or killed in wars but if we knew them by name it would be a different story. Knut put a face to the "term" polar bear... any body see where im going with this?


and as for


zooman said:
Knut represents every thing wrong with zoos


Hand rearing
Human imprinting
Brelin zoo enclosure inadequate
Sensationalising a cute white baby bear.
Abandoning 1 year old Polar bear that is dangerous and no longer cute!

His story is as sad as it gets!
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Ok without hand rearing many species would not be in exsistance today; mauritius kestrel

Human imprinting; many antelope etc would kill themselves running against fences, animals in action displays would not show people these natural behaviours, outreach programs would also not be possible

Brelin zoo enclosure inadequate; fair enough

Sensationalising a cute white baby bear. ; it got people interested and involed with polar bears what more of a conservation education message could you want??

I really dont think this is a sad story at all....
 
Vulpes said:
I really dont think this is a sad story at all....
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Hey always interesting to hear other peoples view.

Have to say you you suggestion that it is not a sad story! Well you seem to sum it up there.

I always think it is dangereous to suggest that animals and humans express themselves in the same way. The Dolphin "smile" comes to mind.

Its just that Knut recieved allot of 1 on 1 attention as he was being raised. That was stopped as it became dangerous.

So now there is a 2 yo Polar bear that appears to be in distress from his cries. That could be heard all over the zoo in March of this year. Spending every day agitated and in distress looking for the company of humans.

To suggest this is not a sad story shows a complete lack of empathy to knut. As he suffers every hour of his day.
 
Polar bears are solitary in the wild so to say he is craving human company is debatable. Its like saying a polar bear reared by his mother still craves her attention after weaning. the calling springs to mind hand reared birds of prey screaming if they have been imprinted, im not sure however but again be careful putting human emotions on animals.
 
Two matters that I would like to adress:

1. What is the deal with Knut at Berlin Zoo right now? Is he for some reason seperated from the other bears there? I seem to recall that there is only one polar bear enclosure.

2. The place in Sweden he would possibly go to is an excellent one. It is called Orsa Björpark (Orsa Bear Park), situated way up north. Their web page is only in Swedish but I will link to it anyway:
Start
It contains very large enclosures at the foothills of a big mountain. According to the web page, the polar bear exhibit that is under construction and will be opened in 2009, is going to be the biggest in the world. And this is in a cold climate far up north in Sweden. Knut could not do better but to move here.

---------------------------

I seem to recall reading a very touching testimony about this park somewhere. Apart from bears it also holds Amur Tigers. The tiger house is apparently situated high up on the foothills of the mountain and have a window from where the tigers can look out on their surroundings - miles and miles of Swedish forest. I guess the story must be from when the tigers had only arrived and were put in quarantine inside the house. They would sit for hours and watch out through the window, being fascinated by the fact that they could see for miles. (Of course they have a very large outdoor enclosure as well).

This story is one of the reasons why I, on this site, always advocate the possibility for zoo animals to have as wide outlooks as possible from their enclosures.
 
Vulpes said:
Polar bears are solitary in the wild so to say he is craving human company is debatable. Its like saying a polar bear reared by his mother still craves her attention after weaning. the calling springs to mind hand reared birds of prey screaming if they have been imprinted, im not sure however but again be careful putting human emotions on animals.
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That is a very interesting argument, but then again - hand rearing of wild animals is never a good thing and who knows what types of irregular behaviour it might result in?

A couple of memories that I would like to mention:

Some five or ten years ago, I saw a fascinating television documentary about a man in Siberia who rescued orphan bears and later reintroduced them to the wild. He made a point of letting the cubs have as little contact with him as possible. I think he even went to some extreme measures like wearing a sort of mask when he interacted with them, doing it only in the dark etc. He never played with them, he never uttered a human sound when being with them. All his efforts aimed for the bear cubs becoming as little as possible interested in humans. Apparently he was very successful in his mission and most rescued cubs were released into the wild without problems.

In Denmark there was a legendary White Rhino called Brutalis. (I believe he was born in another European country, but eventually ended up in Denmark.) He was hand reared by human beings and things went totally wrong. He tried to smash up everything in sight, but at the same time craved for human company. Eventually great efforts were made to let him loose in Africa. He was flown down there and released into a wild life reserve. But even there his "schizophrenic" behaviour continued. He looked for human companionship, befriended the the Head of The Reserve at the man´s lodge (to the point of sleeping next to the poor man´s bedroom window - "poor man" because evidently rhinos suffer from lots of gas in their stomachs and in hot Africa you have to keep your bedroom window open), but at other occasions he tried to smash up the tourist Land Rovers and buses. Brutalis became something of a local hero in Denmark, he was frequently featured on television and even had the brewery Carlsberg name a beer after him. Unfortunately he eventually died in fight with another White Rhino male.

Anyway - Brutalis was another sad example of what can go wrong when hand rearing wild animals. It is never uncomplicated.......
 
By the way - suddenly remembering it, I have seen another tv documentary, documenting a completely different approach to rescuing orphaned bear cubs. In this case it was an American or Canadian rescuing Black Bear cubs. The method was the opposite to the one descibed above - the Siberian guy´s way of doing it.

This North American befriended the cubs in every possible way, before letting them back into the wild. This was done to the point where he could even visit a later protegé of his, now a grown up female with newly born cubs, having the female coming up to greet him - giving him a great big "bear hug", as it were.

This was just as fascinating as the "Siberian approach", of course. But I´ll be damned if the Siberian wasn´t doing a better job...............
 
Vulpes said:
. Its like saying a polar bear reared by his mother still craves her attention after weaning. .
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Actually its nothing like that. The level of attention Knut recieved was extroadinary to say the least.

Vulpes l think if you cared to make a trip to see Knut. You could talk from first hand experiance. You would probably be then less detached. After experianceing first hand what you are talking about.
 
I am talking from first hand experience having hand reared and worked with hand reared animals for many years!

In many cases hand reared animals adapt much better to captivity and lead far more fulfilled lives as more enrichment and training can be done with them. also simple veterinary routines can be carried out without anesthesia. however we are going off topic a little this is not a " to hand rear or not to hand rear debate"

I personally think that if knut does indeed go to a new bigger home he will live as happy a life had he not been handreared. I am glad he was not left to die! zoos are after all about preserving life in a proactive way!
 
Now it's confirmed. Orsa Bear Park will open their polar bear enclosure in May next year. It will be the world's biggest enclosure. :)
 
CZJimmy said:
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Berlin's zoo may lose bear Knut
something tells me that 'Elizabeth from London' doesn't really have an idea of why animals are moved from zoo to zoo...
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Something tells me most of the people who commented don't: He has no other bears for company, all the conditions in Berlin zoo are excellent, Knut looked so sad and alone, and of course "Elizabeth's" comments.
The public are fools lol.
 
Would anyone who knows about it please comment on what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Dan said:
... matters that I would like to adress:
What is the deal with Knut at Berlin Zoo right now? Is he for some reason seperated from the other bears there? I seem to recall that there is only one polar bear enclosure.
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He's in an enclosure next to the brown bears (at least he was last year), he was never mixed with the adult polar bears.
 
Yep that`s correct, I believe he has some contact with an ancient old moon bear in his very first months, but since that, he`s all on his own in the former spectacled bear enclosure.
 
Ah I'd seen a video of him running past a Sloth bear, wondered why it was there. Do they no longer live together?
 
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