Lead in ammunition is poisoning California condors

From my cold dead hands! :D

The article says "The issue has pitted conservationists against hunters' rights groups such as the National Rifle Assn., which calls the connection "unfounded" on its website and has fought attempts to remove lead from ammunition."

Then later on it says "Such a ban is feasible because most manufacturers now make copper bullets as well as lead ones, and those pose no risk to the birds, Smith said, adding: "There's just no reason to use lead-based ammunition anymore.""

As a man who has zero experience with hunting, why exactly is the NRA being so stubborn about keeping lead in bullets?
 
lead shot was banned for duck-shooting a while back in New Zealand and the duck hunting community kicked up a big stink about it, with a complete misunderstanding of why lead shot was being banned (i.e. because it poisons other waterfowl). Originally the ban was supposed to be all-encompassing (not just for waterfowl) but it had to be modified to mollify certain parties.

This page tells the hunters where and what they can shoot with and without lead shot: Non Toxic Shot Regulations | Fish & Game NZ
 
nanoboy said:
From my cold dead hands! :D

As a man who has zero experience with hunting, why exactly is the NRA being so stubborn about keeping lead in bullets?
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They fight anything that they consider "gun control", even if it is an effort to save an endangered species. These are the same people that had a rally celebrating guns after the Columbine massacre because they didn't want any new gun laws.
 
DavidBrown said:
They fight anything that they consider "gun control", even if it is an effort to save an endangered species. These are the same people that had a rally celebrating guns after the Columbine massacre because they didn't want any new gun laws.
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Ah! I saw the docu-movie "Bowling for Columbine". I love Charlton Heston in his films, but the guy was a tool in real life.

How powerful is the NRA to stop a total ban on lead in ammo?
 
it's worth pointing out that a nationwide ban on lead shot for waterfowl hunting was brought in in 1991 in the USA, and since 2008 there has been a ban on lead ammunition in all areas inhabited by condor if hunting large game animals (such as deer) and small non-game animals (varmints) - but not for hunting of upland gamebirds or small game animals (such as rabbits), and not for any other type of shooting (i.e. you can still, as I understand it, go shooting for fun with lead bullets in condor range so long as you're not shooting animals covered by the legislation).
 
With an defacto ban in place, the NRA and hunters (still) using lead ammo should come under the full legal scrutiny of the law and be put on the stand for infringing upon National Laws (as per Endangered Species Act) and infringements upon laws banning usage of lead ammo in California condor habitat.
 
nanoboy said:
Ah! I saw the docu-movie "Bowling for Columbine". I love Charlton Heston in his films, but the guy was a tool in real life.

How powerful is the NRA to stop a total ban on lead in ammo?
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The NRA is a very powerful lobby and their endorsement is coveted by people like Sarah Palin. They hold a lot of power in the Republican party.

I saw Charlton Heston at a book festival in LA once. He was surrounded by law enforcement types because it was at the height of the Columbine uproar. Sad.
 
I have been looking this up to find out more. Can anyone find anything more recent than this one which I believe is impartial.
https://wiki.umn.edu/ESPM3241W/S11PolicyBriefTeamSeventeen

To examine whether the Ridley-Tree Act had had a beneficial impact on the livelihood of condors in the wild, blood lead levels of both living and deceased condors were collected. According to the policy itself, the DFG is required to produce “a report on the levels of lead found in California condors [based on data collected during] calendar years 2008, 2009, and 2012” (AB 821, 2007). For the most recent report, published in 2010, the USFWS collected “data on blood lead levels detected in California condors sampled during calendar year 2009” and provided that data to the DFG (California Department of Fish and Game, Wildlife Branch, 2010). After analysis of this data, the DFG found that this data did not conclusively prove a causal relationship between the prohibition of lead ammunition in condor range and the blood lead levels detected in the sampled condors (California Department of Fish and Game, Wildlife Branch, 2010). The Department cites a number of variables that contribute to this uncertainty, in particular that the sources of lead found in condor blood samples “are not specifically known”, the “relationships of sampled condors to hunting activity are not specifically known”, and condors may be feeding in areas not subject to AB 821’s restrictions (California Department of Fish and Game, Wildlife Branch, 2010).
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If the lead is coming from ammunition do other scavengers also have higher levels, and do birds which are not carnivores have high levels as well. They should be able to prove where the lead is coming from and their should be a measurable effect on the lead ammunition ban over the last 4 years.

Hunting ammunition for larger animals such as deer does not fragment and has a copper jacket to hold it together. I would also have thought almost all projectiles would be removed with the carcases.
 
Monty said:
If the lead is coming from ammunition do other scavengers also have higher levels, and do birds which are not carnivores have high levels as well.
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There have been recent studies on the impact of lead poisoning on golden eagles and turkey vultures in California (inside and outside the ban areas), and those species also have high levels. Non-carnivorous birds do not.


Monty said:
They should be able to prove where the lead is coming from and their should be a measurable effect on the lead ammunition ban over the last 4 years.
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I believe bullets have been proven to be the source, from analyses of the isotopes in the lead. From the article David linked to:
The researchers collected the blood of every wild condor in California twice a year from 1997 to 2010. They analyzed the blood's lead content through a technique called stable isotopic analysis, which allowed them to determine whether the lead in the birds had the same mix of lead isotopes as the lead used in ammunition, compared with other potential sources such as paint.
The lead in the condors matched the bullets in all but nine of the 110 birds.
"This report really strengthens the case for bullets being the source," said J. Michael Scott, a zoologist at the University of Idaho in Moscow, who was not involved in the study.

Monty said:
Hunting ammunition for larger animals such as deer does not fragment and has a copper jacket to hold it together. I would also have thought almost all projectiles would be removed with the carcases.
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that was the reasoning behind the differing content of the use of lead ammunition in the ban areas. Large game cannot be shot with lead ammunition because some is shot for sport (hence left where it falls) and even if hunted for food lead fragments get left in the remains after gutting. Small non-game animals (pest species) are left where they fall and so cannot be shot with lead ammunition. The bodies of small game and birds would be taken away whole, so they may be shot with lead ammunition.

The main problem is that even if specific types of hunting are prohibited with lead ammunition there will still be lead ammunition being used in the same areas for other purposes, and in a gun culture such as America has there will always be people unwilling to obey the rules. With large scavenging birds such as vultures and eagles, just one deer carcasse containing lead fragments can poison a lot of individual birds. The ban on lead shot for hunting waterfowl in America met with a lot of protest; it was first brought in in 1986 in California, and then nationwide in 1991, but it was done with a phase-out period of lead-based shot rather than an immediate ban. The same needs to be done with lead bullets. If you read the American hunting forums etc on the internet, most of the criticisms are based on the government taking away "their rights" and other such nonsense (as David Brown mentioned earlier in the thread).
 
A couple months ago I picked up a book at the Grand Canyon on the california condors reintroduced into Northern Arizona. The author, who was the head of the Arizona condor team for a while, covers this topic. She said Arizona Game & Fish instituted a voluntary program where people who bought hunting licenses were given vouchers for discounted copper bullets (along with information about lead bullets harming condors). She seemed to think it had a positive effect. Considering the NRA is perhaps the most powerful lobby in America, voluntary cooperation like this may be the only solution.

I am surprised to hear there is a partial ban already, because the book is fairly recent and it makes no mention of this. In fact, this is the first I have heard of it.
 
This was a problem 6 years ago too:

"LOS ANGELES (AP) - A lawsuit filed in L-A by a coalition of environmental groups says California condors are dying from lead poisoning because the state has failed to ban lead hunting ammunition.

The suit accuses the state Fish and Game Commission and the Department of Fish and Game of violating the federal Endangered Species Act by permitting continued harm to the rare giant vultures.

It says birds have died after eating carcasses of animals killed by lead bullets or buckshot.

There are currently 135 condors flying freely throughout the southwestern United States and all are considered at risk for lead poisoning.

A Department of Fish and Game spokesman says they agency is disappointed by the lawsuit because it is already reviewing the issue of lead ammunition.

(Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)"

Source: The Sixth Extinction - A forum about the current biodiversity crisis
 
while lead free ammo is certainly a good thing, it may be possible that the ATF may classify some of this lead free ammo as amour piercing rounds and are thus prohibited. we shall see where this goes next.
 
Chlidonias said:
...and since 2008 there has been a ban on lead ammunition in all areas inhabited by condor if hunting large game animals (such as deer) and small non-game animals (varmints)...
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The obvious problem with the ban is: The condor is a free-flight bird, and not likely to heed the invisible, arbitrary border of the land it's allowed to "inhabit."

The NRA is, of course, suing (or going to sue) the State over the ban.

Personally, I would go one step further and ban all "sport" hunting in the state.

In other news, the Oakland Zoo was granted permission to begin treating sick condors two weeks ago. That five-plus hour trip to Los Angeles is now cut in half, and they've also set up a live-cam stream in the Big Sur area where you can watch wild condors... do wild condor things.

Oakland Zoo Condor Cam
 
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