Legalising Exotic Reptiles in Aust. (again)
- Thread starter Ara
- Start date
i think the government would go for the most cost effective method. if it wants to face facts and ever control exotic reptiles in this country than i'd say it will resume licensing again before financing a wildlife crime unit.
license. regulate. monitor-get to know whats in the country already.
then, re-invest the revenue from that on proper biosecurity measures and fight real wildlife crime like smuggling.
funny that the thought of exotic reptiles escaping and establishing wild populations in australia raises such a response...but the issue of exotic birds has hardly been mentioned; though potentially posing no human health risk exotic bird populations wild in australia from aviary escapees are probably more of an eco-system risk than reptiles. and if you want to use the bird example and then expand it to cover any non-indigenous species you could include genetic pollution in galahs in WA and rainbow lorikeets competing with native species in WA, red-browed finches etc.
the point is, any species, plant or animals that are where they werent originally, in great enough numbers pose a threat.
its probably more approtriate to accept and acknowledge these species are in our country and then create some leglislative framework from there. and if the government got so worried about reptiles then it should look at birds too, and maybe even cats.
as for your concern about exotic snakes in australia, i think they do present a risk, yes. and an unquantifiable one. and there is no justification for them being kept. but illegal or legal, the chance of them remaining underground are almost certain.
license. regulate. monitor-get to know whats in the country already.
then, re-invest the revenue from that on proper biosecurity measures and fight real wildlife crime like smuggling.
funny that the thought of exotic reptiles escaping and establishing wild populations in australia raises such a response...but the issue of exotic birds has hardly been mentioned; though potentially posing no human health risk exotic bird populations wild in australia from aviary escapees are probably more of an eco-system risk than reptiles. and if you want to use the bird example and then expand it to cover any non-indigenous species you could include genetic pollution in galahs in WA and rainbow lorikeets competing with native species in WA, red-browed finches etc.
the point is, any species, plant or animals that are where they werent originally, in great enough numbers pose a threat.
its probably more approtriate to accept and acknowledge these species are in our country and then create some leglislative framework from there. and if the government got so worried about reptiles then it should look at birds too, and maybe even cats.
as for your concern about exotic snakes in australia, i think they do present a risk, yes. and an unquantifiable one. and there is no justification for them being kept. but illegal or legal, the chance of them remaining underground are almost certain.
I don't understand your logic. If you agree they are a risk, and there is no justification for keeping them, and that there will still be an underground aspect when legalised, then why would you promote legalising them? Becaus elegalising them will not solve the problem of them being underground, it will just mean that so many more people - those prepared to be licensed - will be keeping exotics too. It will increase the potential threat to native wildlife.
Hix
sorry, i didnt mean to give the impression i think cobras etc should be legalised. there should be a banned species list, just as there is with birds.
but im still for legalsiing non-lethal exotic snakes, turtles, lizards etc and creating a licensing system for them.
but im still for legalsiing non-lethal exotic snakes, turtles, lizards etc and creating a licensing system for them.
I haven't really looked deeply into the situation of legal/illegal when it comes to Australian reptiles, but the argument of it being impossible to control when illegal and therefore should be legel is nonsense. You can use the same argument about virtually everything that is illegal:
Cannabis: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Harder drugs (cocaine, heroine, etc): Sure there are people using them regardless of the law. Legalize them.
Child ****: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Assault weapons: Sure there are people collecting and using them regardless of the law. Legalize them (yes, I know the situation in USA is a bit special in this case, but here I'm referring to the situation virtually everywhere else).
Of course I don't believe the above should be legalized but it just shows that this argument can be used everywhere where something is illegal but there are still people using it.
Cannabis: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Harder drugs (cocaine, heroine, etc): Sure there are people using them regardless of the law. Legalize them.
Child ****: Sure there are people using it regardless of the law. Legalize it.
Assault weapons: Sure there are people collecting and using them regardless of the law. Legalize them (yes, I know the situation in USA is a bit special in this case, but here I'm referring to the situation virtually everywhere else).
Of course I don't believe the above should be legalized but it just shows that this argument can be used everywhere where something is illegal but there are still people using it.
condor, i have a lot of time for other peoples opinions, but what you have written is so stupid. no disrespect man, but if you read the posts, and considered both sides opinions you would see that the arguments put forward are a lot more considered than what you have made them out to be.
i may have compared reptiles to drugs insofar that everyone knows theyre out there, but i never, ever suggested legalising any of what you said. nor do i believe that legalising exotic reptiles in this county would bring a demand on the government to legalise recreational drugs.
i may have compared reptiles to drugs insofar that everyone knows theyre out there, but i never, ever suggested legalising any of what you said. nor do i believe that legalising exotic reptiles in this county would bring a demand on the government to legalise recreational drugs.
Glynn,
I think you've missed the point. Condor is not saying you suggested anything of the sort, or that you believe anything.
He is simply attacking the basic premise that was made : it is illegal, lots of people are involved in this illegal activity, it is hard to enforce, therefore we should legalise it so we can (pretend) we are controlling it.
Looking at the analogies provided it is obvious this is not a logical argument.
Think of any illegal activity and apply this argument to it, you should come to the same conclusion.
Hix
I think you've missed the point. Condor is not saying you suggested anything of the sort, or that you believe anything.
He is simply attacking the basic premise that was made : it is illegal, lots of people are involved in this illegal activity, it is hard to enforce, therefore we should legalise it so we can (pretend) we are controlling it.
Looking at the analogies provided it is obvious this is not a logical argument.
Think of any illegal activity and apply this argument to it, you should come to the same conclusion.
Hix
"What you have written is stupid... no disrespect man". Seriously, did you read that after you posted it? How could that post not be considered as an expression of even the most basic lack of respect? I would suggest you stick to the point, re-read my earlier post, and then read the post by Hix, as he evidently understood the point. Thanks.
Condor,
DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS!!! legalising drugs won't take away the risks involved in taking them. Legalising reptiles can remove a large part of the risk involved in keeping them, that way we know exactly where they are, the majority of people that have them etc.
Drugs can't be used as a comparison to reptiles. very very different trades.
DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS!!! legalising drugs won't take away the risks involved in taking them. Legalising reptiles can remove a large part of the risk involved in keeping them, that way we know exactly where they are, the majority of people that have them etc.
Drugs can't be used as a comparison to reptiles. very very different trades.
also, hopefully by legalising exotic reptiles in australia you could begin to target species specifically for confiscation or deemed to present a major ecological risk.
instead of it being a reptile keepers vs authorities situation, you would have a situation where people would be in a position to give up this information without risking confiscation of their own collection.
for the moment, the main risks presented by exotic reptiles in this country are not being addressed by the prohibition. the risk to personal safety/death from exotic reptiles is probably higher under this scheme, or at least not less as banning these snakes doesnt mean they dont exist at all anymore.
secondly, the ecological impacts really need to be explored and not just heightened by scare-mongerers. at the moment, the exotic birds and fish in this country have more risk of becoming localised pests. and yet they are not illegal.
once again, i think this issue needs a rational approach and acknowledging that its not fixed.
instead of it being a reptile keepers vs authorities situation, you would have a situation where people would be in a position to give up this information without risking confiscation of their own collection.
for the moment, the main risks presented by exotic reptiles in this country are not being addressed by the prohibition. the risk to personal safety/death from exotic reptiles is probably higher under this scheme, or at least not less as banning these snakes doesnt mean they dont exist at all anymore.
secondly, the ecological impacts really need to be explored and not just heightened by scare-mongerers. at the moment, the exotic birds and fish in this country have more risk of becoming localised pests. and yet they are not illegal.
once again, i think this issue needs a rational approach and acknowledging that its not fixed.
Steve,
Continuing to agree to disagree, only because I can see nobody here is going to change their mind!
Hix
Aint that the truth!!!
Guess none of us are 100% right but none of us are 100% wrong either.
We all can see that this a big problem with a potential to get much bigger yet.
How do we reconcile the various viewpoints?
ZYBen
Well-Known Member
With a poll! to see the general zoochat concensus. I will link it to this thread and vice-versa, will do it now.
Poll located here
http://www.zoochat.com/24/legalising-exotic-reptiles-poll-52295/
Poll located here
http://www.zoochat.com/24/legalising-exotic-reptiles-poll-52295/
ZYBen
Well-Known Member
Heres is a copy and elaborated reply to my poll thread
Just carrying on... If Private individuals were keeping flamingoes we wouldnt be down to three...If private individuals were keeping Victoria Crowned Pigeons we wouldnt be down to a few.
Look at the Nicobar Pigeons situation, From Taronga to Gorge Wildilfe Park (SA) from gorge to private hands, and now they arent going anywhere! THeres plenty around, people are breeding them, the price is stil high but i beleive they will hang around.
So what happens when Zoo's Stop breeding Common Boas? I see there are zoo's who would like to exhibit Leopard Tortoise, if it were not for one (to the best of my knowledge) (Private) Zoo who hung into them they would be totally gone!
Zoo's do source off private individuals, i have sent animals to Zoo's around the country, and they are happy!
I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here, sorry all.
Just carrying on... If Private individuals were keeping flamingoes we wouldnt be down to three...If private individuals were keeping Victoria Crowned Pigeons we wouldnt be down to a few.
Look at the Nicobar Pigeons situation, From Taronga to Gorge Wildilfe Park (SA) from gorge to private hands, and now they arent going anywhere! THeres plenty around, people are breeding them, the price is stil high but i beleive they will hang around.
So what happens when Zoo's Stop breeding Common Boas? I see there are zoo's who would like to exhibit Leopard Tortoise, if it were not for one (to the best of my knowledge) (Private) Zoo who hung into them they would be totally gone!
Zoo's do source off private individuals, i have sent animals to Zoo's around the country, and they are happy!
I have gone off on a bit of a tangent here, sorry all.
I would generally agree with your comments. I can only base my experiences of private animal-keeping on the situations in the UK and Australia. Firstly many herp hobbyists keep their charges in as good and sometimes better facilities than large zoos. Problems only occur with people who don't really know what they are doing and choose a species not suitable.
In the UK you can just about keep anything, only some herp species are considered DWA (Dangerous Wild Animal Act legislation) - crocodilians, venomous snakes, venomous lizards, komodos. However there are some species that I feel should be probably better regulated, particularly large species that are difficult to manage and all too readily end up at rehab centres - large boas, pythons and iguanas. One way around this would be to have a second tier permit system. Unfortunately the DWA legislation is flawed anyway with many species on the list that don't need to be and many that have come off it that shouldn't be kept without some sort of permit (just for example lemurs and marmosets).
Some species need to be especially monitored from an Australian perspective - Burmese pythons are already causing havoc in the Everglades, they don't need to add to the cane toad problem. Likewise venomous species need some control. Given the simple fact that the animals are already in the country, with government effectively just ignoring them and claiming it is illegal, will not prevent an accidental escapee causing havoc in the wild or accidental venomation (which lets face it are the main concerns). Prohibition doesn't work for drugs, guns or prostitution, why should it suddenly work for exotic pets. Far better to regulate it.
That is the very problem with the main argument presented initially. You can say the exact same about all the examples I mentioned earlier (harder drugs, child ****, heavy firearms, etc). Are there any governments (perhaps except North Korea, but I doubt anyone on this board want that government!) that are in complete control over anything they've deamed illegal? Should it all be legal then? Evidently, you believe the keeping of reptiles by private individuals should be legal in Australia. Therefore, I can only recommend you stick with other arguments than the above mentioned (which really is nothing but an extention of the point I mentioned earlier). Why? Well, this and a few other "cover-it-all" arguments feature in the very basics of law. In other words, while you might feel differently, the very people actually writing and dealing with the law for a large part have the same feeling I do about this argument; that is, any argument that can be used anywhere is greatly devaluated. So, if you're actually trying to get this changed, you'd need more than the ordinary amount of luck if using "it can't be controlled when illegal, so it should be legal" as the main argument.
Let me just say one last thing about this subject and then I will shut up about it forever........
I am, by hobby, an aviculturist. I do not keep reptiles, and have no intention of ever doing so; BUT, as I slide (gallop?) into old age, I am becoming more and more perturbed by the ever-increasing petty rules and regulations, and the increasing weight of "political correctness" which supposedly free citizens have to live under in this great country of ours.
No one in their right mind expects private citizens to be able to freely keep cobras, rattlesnakes etc. but where's the problem with ball pythons, chameleons etc.?
As for the argument that escapees may colonise the Australian bush, I have yet to see free colonies of peachface lovebirds, Indian ringneck parrots etc. despite them being kept here in large numbers for many years.
I am, by hobby, an aviculturist. I do not keep reptiles, and have no intention of ever doing so; BUT, as I slide (gallop?) into old age, I am becoming more and more perturbed by the ever-increasing petty rules and regulations, and the increasing weight of "political correctness" which supposedly free citizens have to live under in this great country of ours.
No one in their right mind expects private citizens to be able to freely keep cobras, rattlesnakes etc. but where's the problem with ball pythons, chameleons etc.?
As for the argument that escapees may colonise the Australian bush, I have yet to see free colonies of peachface lovebirds, Indian ringneck parrots etc. despite them being kept here in large numbers for many years.