Leopards & Jaguars

Yep, of course that's what we want Mark, empty paddocks. You got it in one - want a job as a zoo director? :rolleyes:

I assume you're refering to Onagers. As Zuki Pah says - there's one entire male in the region, and all the animals at Dubbo have been bred there, so are quite related. That leaves us with two choices to improve things - import a bunch of unrelated animals or move the Onagers out, and use the space for something else. No other zoos in the region are interested in housing Onagers, so the herd at Dubbo will never be viable unless we continue to import. They are very few and far between, and it's unlikely that we'd be able to manage a decent herd of this species at one institution.

The other choice is to use the resources taken up with Onagers for something else - maybe Indan Rhino? Maybe making room for additional Asian Elephants? Maybe Dholes? Or maybe any of a whole host of other species that we already have in the region, that we require more space to sustain them. (I'm not literally suggesting we use the actual Onager exhibit for this, other species can be shuffled around).

Which sounds more sensible, given the situation with Onager?
 
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i agree with amrk, we shouldnt have these emty paddocks when there is a species, with conservation value, and could quite easily, has quite easily been breed, and has potential to b erealeased to the wild.

and what resources do they need, a minimal species to maintain, yet one with a high need to be conserved.

and the herd argument, it would be quite easy to maintain a herd at dubbo- we have 200 acres after all, i mean they maintain 2 groups of p.horses, and the odd one here and there, so we can easliy house 2,3 groups of onagers.

basically saying, the onager needs little resources to maintain, and has high conservation value. as do elephants and rhino, but if a zoo can maintain all it's own animals, and maintain them according to international standards, why not keep them. we did it with black rhinos, and we have done it with the onageers now for close to 20 yrs, why not keep going hay?
 
One problem for the Onager is its lack of display value- virtually nil as far as the general public are concernd, and that puts it at a serious disadvantage when it comes to decision making for available enclosure space..

I personally think wild asses are great- though if you ever see Somali Wild Asses you'll never think the others come to much by comparison...
 
well thats what we need them for, to give them a name in conservation, it was as such the case with p. horses, no1 new until our zoos did the big import, realese.

we jst need to do the one thing all zoos strive for----education, through recreation and conservation.
 
Try that again, As far as I am concerned Breeding Endangered species is a zoos number one job every other reason comes after that, Jersy zoo is my case in point, saving species the most at risk.
 
just rereading all the stuff posted, which particular reference to indian rhinos. i suggested that in the future they will become non-viable regionally, enjoying the same status as the black rhino.
internationally, one more indian rhino or one more black rhino, whereever they may be born, warrants alot of celebration and carries with it enormous potential to further improve husandary, reaearch, etc.
however, it does not change the fact that if ARAZPA already considers two rhino programs to be regionally sustainable, i just cant see how a third one could be considered viable, even from such a fundamental aspect of genetics. two animals (dora and kua), vs 10 unrelated animals(black rhinos).
look, i love rhinos. but thats not the point i was making. the point i was making is that this species could not be considered to be a viable program. by the same token, if more zoos go on board regionally and imported more unrelated animals then this species might become viable. it does live for a long time after all.
 
Zoo_Boy said:
i beleive if it is if there are more than 20 individuals of a species in the region
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Oh course it is, but where on god's earth do you think we can get 20 Indian rhinos from? We'll be very lucky if we are able to import ANY additional animals to this region.
 
um u must be stupid then it makes perfect sense. what r u on about?

i said thts why the indians are not considered viable, along with the balcks.
 
just to correct my post

i just re-read my latest post, and what i meant to say is that if having two rhinoceros programs in australia is considered unsustainable than its even more unlikely that a third rhino breeding program could be considered viable.
the indian rhino program also stands against (at least) one of ARAZPA's regional planning principles which is to concentrate on species already in the region.
as for the persian onagers, i really feel that despite everyones feelings on the species it is a good candidate for phasing out. being endangered is beside the point. there is no interest from other zoos. the regional population is low with 0 potential for growth. and all the animals are related. importing a new stallion would only reduce the level of inbreeding, not fix the problem. any offspring produced should head overseas to regions facing a demographic bottleneck, and our aging stock deleted by attrition.
 
and zoo boy, 20 meerkats in the region dont create a viable program either mate. its all got to do with, besides genetic variation and age, the generation length of a species.
20 meerkats would begin to show signs of inbreeding alot faster than a group of eland who would again show more signs of inbreeding than a 20 strong herd of rhinos.
 
'Population Management Programs - Species held, or planned to be held, in more than one ARAZPA institution, in numbers > 20, which require coordinated population management to ensure viability and persistence.'

from arazpa, it sort of relates, i carnt find actually information i had before, and dont argue, i know thts not totally correct
 
what the? sourcing enough indian rhinos to build up a population of 20 might prove a bit of a headache. there seems to be a number of trends amongst our regions zoos which make or break these exotic species programs.
the first being quarantine.

1-quarantine restrictions have crippled programs for rothschilds giraffes, bongo and pygmy hippo. all these programs produced early results but now face problems with inbreeding...currently quarantine laws do not restrict the importation of rhinos. but the cost of these transactions is high and will need to be considered in the future, within one generation.
on the other hand programs for non-restricted species can become more viable.

2-lack of founders. when programs like with the bongo start wih only one or two zoos importing a few animals each the programs seem to fail. despite projected regional commitment importing too few animals leads to inbreeding, which affects all the species/sub species mentioned above. additionally, ill health or deaths in our tiny populations of clouded leopard, african elephant, malayan tapir, bongo and pygmy hippo seem to cause these programs to stall. our regional breeding program for the indian rhino rests on the shoulders of 2 individuals. what if one dies.
on the other hand, programs for the black rhino could be considered slightly more viable owing to the large numbers of founders. gorillas, cheetah, white rhino and asian elephant are other examples.

3-lack of regional commitment vs intensive commitment. this is the problem facing persian onagers, some primate species (sulawesi macaque), some carnivores (maned wolves). what level of regional involvement is anticipated for the indian rhinoceros?. without a higher level of regional participation the risks above become acute.
on the other hand, high levels of regional involvement have led to more viable populations of lion, sumatran tiger, african wild dog, red panda, zebra, przewalski horse, oryx, etc.

the indian rhino is one of a number of species including dhole, sun bear, francois langur, binturong, fishing cats, golden cats, snow leopards and silvery gibbons who stand at a management crossroads. im sure we all would like to see these species become established in our regions, adding to a more diverse range of exotic species, but its quite easy to look back and see that when programs start small they tend to fizzle out. against our strict quarantine laws and small holding capacity, as well as lack of regional commitment and coordination, plus the ability of our zoos to obtain funding to build enclosures for these species all we can do on this forum is speculate as to the short-term and long-term future of these species locally.
yes i would like to see them be established but i feel that if you look to the past programs that begin with a few individuals and involve only one or two zoos seem to fail.
sorry if i always seem like the zoo party pooper, im just trying to be practical.
 
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