Ligers, Zonkeys and other hybrids

dean said:
Pertinax is this one of the varieties they used to have at Longleat?( I only ever saw it on the TV show animals park or one of it's re editing spin offs) but it was of very mixed colouring, with lots of white.
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As FfBird said, yes. I am not sure of the relationship between them, if the 'tabby' was produced by the White/normal pair or if they were litter mates. With the correct genetic mix all three can occur in one Litter.

The 'tabby' has a white face and legs and a 'dilute' gingery orange/striped body, more like a Marmalade cat IMO.
 
Vulpes said:
A white Lion crossed with a white tiger!

I wonder will the offspring be white?

The world's first white 'liger' cubs are rarest big cats on the planet | Mail Online
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Favourite quotes from the article include :-

"There are around 1,000 ligers in the world - most in captivity - but none of them are white."

"These adorable cubs may look cute and unassuming but they are in fact the rarest of their species – and could grow to be the biggest cats in the world."

"There are only around 300 white lions and 1,200 white tigers left in the world, so the cubs’ father, Ivory and mother, Saraswati, are extremely rare in their own right."

"their mother, Saraswati, is a snow white Bengal tiger."

You've got to love the Daily Mail, scientific reporting at its best! ;) :p
 
Brum said:
Favourite quotes from the article include :-

"There are around 1,000 ligers in the world - most in captivity - but none of them are white."

"These adorable cubs may look cute and unassuming but they are in fact the rarest of their species – and could grow to be the biggest cats in the world."

"There are only around 300 white lions and 1,200 white tigers left in the world, so the cubs’ father, Ivory and mother, Saraswati, are extremely rare in their own right."

"their mother, Saraswati, is a snow white Bengal tiger."

You've got to love the Daily Mail, scientific reporting at its best! ;) :p
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don't forget the comments! :D

"If you wanted science... in nature it is possible, It's not like they have been artificially inseminated or forced to have sex... they are of the same species, the way we distinguish through cats is by saying tigers and lions are different... in some senses yes, but then again its the same way that an english man different from a cuban... were adapted to different environments... there has been notable cases of wild ligers in india over the years."
 
I didn't get to the comments, most of them are frankly ridiculous but the last one posted makes a bit more sense :-

"DM please stop reporting these conservation non-stories. These animals would simply not occur in the wild environment. White lions and tigers are synonymous with dysfunctional zoos and undermine the positive work that genuine collections undertake. There is no positive conservation or educational message here."

A sound bit of reasoning there, thank God! :D
 
Ligers, Zonkeys......

White Ligers should be easily produced as it's likely to be the same mutation. I would be surprised if White Lion x White Tiger produced anything except Whites. What you won't get is White Sabre-tooths. Or a Brontosaurus.
 
Chlidonias said:
there are several photos of the cubs on the link...
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I meant when they grow up. There was quite a bit of tawny in the cubs.

I am unsure if it is the same mutation with white lions and white tigers. Even if it is, it may not line up.

When breeders cross white corn snakes with white king snakes to produce what is known as a "jungle corn", the offspring are not always white!

From my limited knowledge of genetics and breeding, It could be the case that the cubs would have to be bred with another carrier, for both the white lion gene and the white tiger gene, in order for it to line up. If they were not infertile that is!
 
FBBird said:
White Ligers should be easily produced as it's likely to be the same mutation. I would be surprised if White Lion x White Tiger produced anything except Whites. What you won't get is White Sabre-tooths. Or a Brontosaurus.
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What I understood they are not the same mutation. White lions are a mutation which influences the production of Tyrosenase, which is actually the same mutation that causes the non-sex-linked lutino mutations in parrot species. The mutation in tigers is linked to a gene responsible for the transport of eumelanin to the hairs. unlike with the lions where the mutations affects the production of the same pigment.
 
I've seen several crosses of chital (Axis axis) & Javan rusa in captive herds where they have been enclosed together. The offspring are an attractive animal with a base brown colour similar to the rusa, but with bronze spots. I have also seen successful crosses back to pure parents from these hybrids.

Why? Well the ones I have seen were accidents & then kept as curiosities in private collections. It's not my cup of tea to produce hybrids, but the advantage I saw when working these animals was how easy they were to work, it was like working with sheep & not deer. They couldn't decide for themselves whether to run or not when I put pressure on them to move through the race & yards, & just followed directions extremely well. The easiest deer or antelope I've handled by a long shot, & as an adage, the venison was superior to that of either parent.

No doubt this helps to explain why there are very few hybrids & very narrow hybrid zones in nature. Hybrids have poor anti predator strategies & are easier to catch than the pure animals. I'm not a believer in the idea of breeding a "super animal?" from crosses. Nature has been at it a lot longer than the working life of one person who is attempting to produce "new lines".

Cheers Khakibob
 
khakibob said:
Hybrids have poor anti predator strategies & are easier to catch than the pure animals.
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Are you basing this sweeping generalisation on the fact that the one hybrid you mention has those traits, or is there some published information somewhere that states this?

:p

Hix
 
khakibob said:
I have also seen successful crosses back to pure parents from these hybrids.

I'm not sure that is possible is it?

From two fertile hybrids crossed together all the offspring will still be hybrids. no matter how closely some may resemble one or other of the original parent species. But they still cannot be 'pure' afaik as they carry the hybrid genetics.
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The rusa X chital hybrids were bred to "pure" rusa & produced fertile offspring.

Khakibob
 
Hix said:
Are you basing this sweeping generalisation on the fact that the one hybrid you mention has those traits, or is there some published information somewhere that states this?

:p

Hix
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Do some research on naturally occurring hybrids, "hybrid zones" & fitness of hybrids.

Cheers Khakibob
 
khakibob said:
Do some research on naturally occurring hybrids, "hybrid zones" & fitness of hybrids.

Cheers Khakibob
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But that doesn't answer my question.


khakibob said:
The rusa X chital hybrids were bred to "pure" rusa & produced fertile offspring.
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That doesn't mean the offspring are pure Rusa. They can't possibly be, as they will still have chital genes.

:p

Hix
 
Pertinax said:
That just produces more hybrids- 3/4 rusa, 1/4 chital. Fertile maybe but not pure.
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Of course it will produce more hybrids.

In my work, being "bred back" to a pure, describes the hybrid then being bred under or over a pure parent, & producing an offspring.

The point I was making is that these animals from a different genera produce completely fertile offspring with no apparent decline in fecundity or fertility.

Almost all the various hybrids I have worked with display different temperaments & behaviours to the pure parents. IMO it reduces fitness required for survival in the wild.

Cheers Khakibob
 
epickoala123 said:
leopard x puma, " " " "
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Found some notes on this one :
1895 Hagenbeck sold a Leopard and a Puma to a menagerie-owner in Great Britain and here the pair bred 3 times. Each birth contained 2 young but of the 6 born only one survaived. This male was later sold ( again by Hagenbeck ) to the Zoo of Berlin were it died 1911.
Skull and skill are still to be found in the Natural History Museum in Berlin.
Its still not complete clear which of the parents was male and which female.
In an note in some kind of magazine its said the Leopard was the male and the Puma the female, on the label in the museum its however Puma-male and Leopard-female.
 
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