Dartmoor Zoo Lion Man Craig Busch at Dartmoor!

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Sorry to add to this disagreement but i really feel i have to put this down.
Working with animals is all about respect and trust.By declawring animals you are breaking that immediately.Lions need claws they are a vital part of being what they are.To eat,To fight for dominance,to Mark territory by scratching trees - Claws are a huge part of being a lion and by taking them away it shows no respct for the animal and no trust - if you trust an animal and the animal trusts you when you go in with the animals the use of the claws are normally minimal as the animal knows how much you can take and that they dont need to be 'up' because you will do them no harm.
And to take away cubs from mothers is in my eyes discarceful - if the animal is close to dieing then i have no disagreement but when everything is going well just to take them away can be one of the most awful things to do to a caring mother.Just imagine if a human mother had her baby taken away from her? - what would the effect be exactly the same as it is for another mother hugely emotionally upsetting for her and the cubs.
To respect and trust the animals is one of the most important rules i believe in looking after animals and that rule has been completely broken.Thats why i do not like the methods of Craig Busch.
But what we have to say here is everyone has their own rights to their own oppinion - So crazy Cat you think Craig Busch is great, I dont. So what? we have a right to believe in what we believe in, Im fine with you feeling like that about Craig Bush just dont try not to afflict your views on me.
Kind Regards.
 
Crazy-cat the main points as I see it of the pro Craig Busch supporters are for his interaction with the big cats and that they find it totally acceptable for him to go into their cages and hand rear their young for the sole purpose of doing exactly the same with them.

These are not domestic cats! They should be given in my opinion, the respect they deserve when kept in captivity and treated as much as possible as a wild animal. Gawd knows being in captivity can take away some of their natural behaviour and instincts to then try and 'domesticate' them is unacceptable in my eyes.

They have claws for a reason if they did not need them they wouldn't have them. If Craig Busch was in such good control of them they would not need to be declawed or chained. Mothers do reject their young and it is usual for them to be left alone when giving birth as their natural instinct is to find a place on their own.

Obviously people who are regulars on this site are not going to agree with the pro Craig busch members who have joined recently (I assume to contribute to this post) their experiences of big cats have been in a conventional zoo environment for the sake of animal conservation/education and not there to perform or be collected and bred for purely entertainment.
 
Marwell Dalek said:
Yes, you have the occasional ones that don't know how to care for their young, but blackpanther's point is that Craig takes most if not all cubs from their mothers regardless of how well they're doing. This is against so many rules of nature, and is trying to dominate something that we should not. How do you explain that as good welfare?
You say you shouldn't ignore facts, but it's interesting you've skipped that as well as conviniently not debating back at my earlier post.
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Thats correct Dalek, that was my point exactly, how many times (and i should say i have watched all three series of lionman) have we seen baskets of handreared cubs, with either craig or megan bleary eyed, at one point i think they had lions and tigers because amafu had rejected some cubs and so had rewa. I disagree with the walking on chains thing, and i definatly disagree (from episode of lionman again!) with zion being trained to sit on top of a jeep, some of the things i have seen done on the show have made me cringe, i am going out to zion hopefully august 2010 if i can raise the funds, because i'd like to see for myself what its like, i'm happy that the park now has a hands off policy, and had i gone while the hands on was still in operation i'd have refused to participate, i understand the feelings that watching people cuddling lions and tigers invokes, but now i know its wrong. I am sick to death of reading how the cats miss their dad and their emotional well being is at stake if he doesn't get back to the park, thats called projection, meaning that human feelings are projected onto animals, and i blame disney as they are the main culprits of this. The whole conservation message needs to change! sorry rant over
 
BabylonZoo said:
Yes of course, far more civilised to post innocent photos and try and imply some unpleasant sexual connotation, accuse someone of drug taking and animal abuse, or have you forgotten Megan's page? If you want to continue to support people who are happy to break contracts and the law, please be my guest.
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It works both ways. Breaking what laws? Megan's page no longer exists. No I haven't forgotten. Photos may infer something but what it comes down to is it was a photoshoot. Why some of those images were taken who knows. For a laugh perhaps. I haven't accused Craig Busch of taking drugs or killing the cubs or being some kind of sick person. No proof so therefore I will not personally accuse someone of doing something they may or may not have done. I can't agree with the declawings, it's a sickening practice considering claws are an essential part of a cat's physiology and their muscles and ligaments are constructed with claws as part of that. The claws are used for stretching and toning the muscles as well as for holding prey. The courts will be the deciding factor not us.
 
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Here are some bits about tiger cubbing & raising from the 5tigers website which I hope might be of some interest, written by members of the Tiger Species Survival Plan (SSP). Zoos have learned over the years from people who live and breathe animal husbandry and welfare; ideas about best practice when it comes to tiger birth and raising have not come out of thin air but resulted from the hundreds of hours of dedication trained zoo workers put in, and it's fair to say that zoos have also learned from their mistakes over the years. Hand-raised animals of any species often have behavioural and social problems, and it really should be a last resort. Wild tiger mothers have been known to practice what we humans would call euthanasia on cubs that they know cannot survive for some reason.

Research: Management of Captive Tigers, Chapter 6

A behavioral analysis of time-lapse videotape of five tiger birth sequences at the Minnesota Zoo (13 hours before to 13 hours after parturition) revealed the following information. The time interval between the first and last birth ranged from 2-4 hours. In the 13 hours following the first birth, the females spent an average of 36% of their time nursing the cubs or with the cubs resting in a nursing position, although this figure varied widely among the females (11-58%). The females spent about 24% of the time grooming the cubs (range = 15-37%) and majority of the remaining time resting within 0.5m of the cubs (21%). Although the females had access to an adjacent holding enclosure, they spent 98-100% of their time in the approximately 3m x 3m maternity den.

Similar observations at the Minnesota Zoo documented the behavior of a wild-caught female Siberian tiger and her first litter (four cubs) through 14 weeks of age. This female spent about 60% of her time resting with at least one cub in a nursing position through the first seven weeks, after which nursing decreased. The cubs began eating solid food by 13 weeks of age and were completely weaned as of week 17. The cubs began grooming each other at nine weeks and self grooming at 12 weeks. Social play was noted at five weeks and increased with age.

These observations may be specific to the behavioral patterns and "personalities" of these individual tigers, but they are an attempt to quantify information which is rarely documented to this extent. They may be used as guidelines to which the behavior of other females with varying levels of maternal experience and with varying litter sizes can be compared.

When cubs are born London and Stuttgart offer the following comments that will help avoid the need to hand-rear cubs: "Newborn cubs can be observed using a video if desired, but 24-hour direct observation is likely to be disturbing for the female and therefore detrimental to the well-being of the cubs. There should be no interference with a female and cubs in the early stages (0-28 days), as with many carnivores this has caused the death, or necessity for hand-rearing, of cubs. Cleaning should not take place in the cubbing area until the youngsters are moving out of the birth den on their own volition; again, such disturbance is likely to be detrimental. Staff cannot be certain that the mother will not harm the cubs until they are at least three weeks old.

If examination of cubs at an early stage is deemed necessary, the hands of the keepers and veterinarians, and all equipment used, should be covered in scent from used bedding before contact with the cubs, and noise should be kept to an absolute minimum. Before returning the mother to them, the cubs themselves should also be thoroughly covered with scent from used bedding to remove human odors."

Although the opportunity to cross-foster cubs from one female mother to another will probably not occur at most zoos, it has been demonstrated to be a viable option and is recommended over removing the cubs and hand-rearing them. At the Minnesota Zoo two females gave birth within the same week. One female (# 732) gave birth to four cubs (SB#'s 5464-67); the other female (# 5069) gave birth to two cubs (SB# 5475 and 5476). The cumulative growth curves for the four cubs immediately were below the standard curve so one cub (the heaviest of the four to allow him to compete with the larger cubs of the other female) was transferred on day 27 to female 2003. The transfer was accomplished by shifting mother 2003 temporarily into an adjacent enclosure, moving the new cub in with the other two cubs, and covering the new cub with excrement from the mother. The mother was immediately reintroduced to the cubs. She went straight to the new cub, smelled it, and licked it clean. Within minutes she was nursing all three cubs. The cub prospered, as did the smaller litter of three left with mother #732 (R. Taylor and R. Tilson, unpublished data). ...



The Tiger SSP believes cubs should be raised by their mother for four reasons: 1) she does a better job; 2) the cub usually grows up to be better adjusted behaviorally; 3) it makes a great exhibit; and 4) it saves considerable staff time and reduces management constraints. When this is not possible due to maternal neglect or health reasons the cubs should be hand-raised. The cubs should remain with the mother long enough to receive colostrum.

The Arnhem Zoo objects to hand-raising any rejected cubs. The exception is genetically important cubs, and attempts should be made to determine the cause of the mother's neglect in order to improve the situation for the next litter. Furthermore, Arnhem Zoo believes that unless the mother is highly valuable genetically, she should not have anymore litters. London Zoo believes valuable females should be given several chances to improve maternal behaviour.
 
Thank You Panthera Puss for putting that together. I will be interested to read the contradictions from a Busch fan.

Best Wishes,

Peter
 
Thanks Gentle Giant and Panthera Puss it made a very interesting read and a very interesting watch of the video.
Regards,
 
Craig Busch Visiting Denmark

I was told this morning that Craig Busch would be visiting a zoo in Denmark on 23/24/25 October and that UK visits were still on the cards. Can anyone expand?
 
Hopefully all this talk of him coming to the UK will be the most talked about non event on the net :p

And hopefully any other visits in Europe are a disaster and no one comes :rolleyes:
 
Paradise Wildlife Park announced on their facebook page that there is NO PLANNED lion man event, to both positive and negative responses.

Well done to them, all eyes on the other collections who's names are in the frame!!!
 
Colchester has also stated on their Facebook page he is not coming there! I just feel sorry for the zoos that had no intention of supporting him as their good names have got dragged into it all over the net!
 
blackpanther said:
Naestved Zoo in Denmark 23rd to 25th October
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One thing I have noted that the zoo have done and that's stated clearly White Tigers are the result of a recessive gene not a separate species. I originally thought the entrance fee was 299 pounds and had stated that but the translation was not correct. Thanks guys for clearing that up.

Google Translate

The Sunday News here in New Zealand has taken note of Mr Busch's visits it's our equivalant to a tabloid I suppose. The journalist has quoted from Mr Busch's Facebook Fan Page - apparently Mr Busch was not available for an interview. Fine.

Lion Man leaving to thank UK fans | Stuff.co.nz
 
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Hi and thanks MadBushFarm

On the website for his trip to Denmark. Is it due to the trasnlator or does it really mean the final time?

You have followed him in the series with wild lions, who have repeatedly been shown on TV2.
Now is your final opportunity to meet "Lion Man" Craig Busch!

Google Translate
 
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insanityprof said:
Hi and thanks MadBushFarm

On the website for his trip to Denmark. Is it due to the trasnlator or does it really mean the final time?

You have followed him in the series with wild lions, who have repeatedly been shown on TV2.
Now is your final opportunity to meet "Lion Man" Craig Busch!

Google Translate
Click to expand...

It looks like those are confirmed dates for his visit and it was stated as I recall on his facebook fanpage that he was visiting Denmark at the end of October (close enough).
 
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