Zion Wildlife Gardens Lion Man

patrick said:
i saw this show albeit breifly, on TV a few months ago. does this guy claim to have barbary lions? there are a lot of zoos and private individuals that claim their lions are barbarys - so far i know, even the original "kings collection" is not entirely purbred.
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Patric/Mark/anybody. I'm interested to know where these Barbary Lions have originated from?
Patrick is right in that several zoos claim to have Barbaries without any real evidence. And now(2006) its been published that scientific examination of the genetypes shows that even the ones at Rabat Zoo, Morocco(the Kings collection) AREN'T from Barbary Lion descent. The Pure Barbary has been identified -from known Barbary museum specimens-as having gene haplotype 11, quite close to the Asian lion(Halotype 10) The ones at Rabat(or at l east those bloodtested) seem to be descended from lions from areas of CentralAfrica. Port Lympne's Barbaries are from the Moroccan line too. Two of them were blood tested too, with the same result, so they are similarly probably not pure.

It seems currently there aren't any genuine Barbary lions, or lions with known Barbary blood which can be proved as such, in any zoos anywhere. I'd love to hear differently though.
 
how many subspecies...

i've read that ALL african lions are so recently diversified from one ancestor that many scientists really only recognise them all as one race - the African Lion panthera leo leo, the only other subspecies being the Asian Lion panthera leo persica... some claim the barbary was indeed one and the same as the asian, once also found throught asia, the middleast and southern europe. i assume that would impy the sahara was the natural boundary that kep the two races from interbreeding. personally, i suspect the black shaggy manes reported to belong to cape and barbaries is somewhat a result of a cooler climate - hence why we see it popping up in so many "barbaries" in the north america and europe..
 
grantsmb, I emailed the zion wildlife gardens in north Island New Zealand about their Lions twice asking them where they obtained their lion from and they never replyed so who knows. I did contact Port Lymyne a number of times last year about their Barbary lions (they answered each time) which were dna tested and found to be genetically different from all other lions worldwide, they did send me quite a bit of info on them which i can try and dig out for you if you like, or you ask them yourself as they seemed quite helpful.
 
i cruised there website.sites for about 3 hrs last night, those 2 zoos are amazing, we need something like that in australia, including the 150 acre not so african experience. this is kool and funny, giraffe, zebra and black rhino among 5 african anteklope species, on the 150 acres with prezwaski horses, and many native europeon species and asian antelopes.
 
Barbariy Lions.

Patrick- yes, I think its accepted Barbay and Asian Lons were more closely related as were all lions living north of the Sahara, examination of the genes of museum specimens shows this to be so.

Also,as you say, any male lion living in a cold climate will or can grow a big shaggy mane so it looks superficially Barbary, hence many of the claims. They have found about ten other characteristics which seperate the(apparent) Barbary from other lions- but of course they are all minor ones like eye colour, skull shape, colour of hair, etc and all difficult to pin down & prove.

Mark.- I'd be interested in what Port Lympne told you about their lions. I spoke to the keeper about them a few months ago- he said they never had the results of the DNA tests, and sort of admitted that no-one really knows how pure their lions are. I suspect the info you received is 'zoo propoganda' rather than hard fact- the science now shows the lions in the Moroccan Kings Collection are NOT Barbary and that they have the genetic code of lions from SOUTH of the Sahara.

I think most zoos keeping 'Barbary Lions' are still keen to keep the myth alive- but the science sadly in no way supports it.

I'd be interested to read what Port Lympne say on this matter.
 
Zoo_Boy said:
i cruised there website.sites for about 3 hrs last night, those 2 zoos are amazing, we need something like that in australia, including the 150 acre not so african experience. this is kool and funny, giraffe, zebra and black rhino among 5 african anteklope species, on the 150 acres with prezwaski horses, and many native europeon species and asian antelopes.
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I haven't visited this part as I didn't have time and it costs extra. What they have done is open up the private area where they used to keep all their surplus Asian hoofed stock and then added some common African animals which were surplus or needed homes from other zoos(zebra/gnu/giraffe etc) and call it the 'African Experience'. You go around in a large converted truck and stop off for a while in the middle. It is very much an extra money-making endeavour to help fund the upkeep of all the animals they have- Port Lympne in particular suffers from a location way out in the countryside without any big city nearby to bring them much needed hordes of visitors...
 
The results were published in ( i think, international zoo news ), if you scan the net you can find it, i have seen it on there, the same results were sent to me some months ago from PL.
 
mark-okay, I've seen that Barbary lion article, already, it was published by a Japanese scientist, a Dr Namogochi/Yamogochi? It was done in conjunction with a 'Barbary Lion project' which seems to have folded since then. This is now quite old(2002) info.
Together wih an Oxford University team, he published NEW scientific info in Feb 2006- in which he identified the various lion genotypes from different parts of Africa and, very briefly reported the results of DNA tests on the lions- according to his research it revealed that the existing 'Barbary' lions don't carry the correct genotype anymore. The test they use involves a difference only shown in the female DNA as it stated " the findings show the Moroccan lions tested are not from Barbary stock in the maternal line" (or similar words)

I think Port Lympne and other 'Barbary' zoos don't want to know these findings, as it means breeding their current Barbary lions is pointless. Also,I was told there's no where they be realistically be reintroduced into the wild, but that's a different issue.
 
Barbary Lion Project.

Actually the name of the Barbary Lion specialist is Nobuyuki Yamaguchi.
The idea was that his scientific work on this subspecies(?) would be funded by a charity called Wildlink International, whose 'Barbary Lion Project' would raise funds for the scientific work to be done on the Lions. The Oxford Wildlife Research Unit would do the DNA testing required.

Then 'Wildlink' seemed to disappear without trace- Dr Yamaguchi has been carrying on without outside funding for as long as possible, but there are fears that the project is virtually at a standstill. A place in Morocco was even chosen where any suitable lions could be reintroduced into a semi-wild existence.

But the latest 2006 info seems to indicate that so far NO lions carrying the genes of the Barbary are known to exist. Of course, only a very few of the possible candidates have actually been tested, so its still an open situation.

Port Lympne's 'Barbary' lions stem from the Moroccan lions- which were previously thought to be the most 'pure' of the possible Barbary strains, but now it seems they are no more Barbary than any other lions, which is a disappointment. As there were still wild Barbaries alive in North Africa in the early years of last century, its not impossible there are still lions carrying Barbary blood living somewhere in zoos, but if so, they haven't been proved to exist yet...:(
 
I recently had the opportunity to go over to the park and was able to spend an amazing 3 hours there.

I have watched both of the series of the lion man and have been religiously following it despite Craig Busch being a dick head!

The first thing I saw were the two new cheetahs who aren’t king cheetahs but still beautiful. They plan to breed them, if they can, as of course cheetahs are notoriously hard to breed.

I then saw a beautiful male black leopard how was in beautiful condition if in a small home.

There were also a couple of servals which my guide said had, had a litter which the female had killed two days after the babies were born.

This is my understanding of the situation there:
Most of Craig’s lions are descended from the old male and female of the "wild pride" who were originally circus animals that another couple rescued and Craig got off them in dubious circumstances along with foxy the baboon.

The tigers included the white tigers he got in America and brought back to New Zealand. Now he says that they are not related (but as we know all white tigers are related) and I find it amazing that he found four young white tigers with distant bloodlines in a short time.

Since the series there have been many cubs born included two litters of which 4 went back to Africa in exchange from white lions. When I was there was another female adult white who I am not sure if she is unrelated or part of that original two litters. Along with that there was another 2 year old cub that lived with 3 lion cubs who I will talk about later. There were also four 11month old white tiger cubs one of which I was able to see had the typical cross eyes of close inbreeding.

Now to the lions

Gandor the original white lion who was brought over had a female "Barbary" lion come with him as company. She was originally destined to be the mate of Zion the star of the park but was covered by Gandor resulting from that are the three cubs that live with the white tiger cub. Interestingly the two males manes differ significantly one is very thick and dark and has covered his belly the other is short, still quite thick but a typical African mane. Both the female and this male are light in colour though nowhere near as white as their sire.

three more white lion were brought out after Gandor including another male and two white females who were the same age and from the same place in Africa of which Gandor was from (probably from the same parents). They are so big and beautiful and very tame. Fully matured our guide was able to go in and lie down on top of the male, who gave a typical lion moan until he got off.
Both females had litters the first female had four and was unable to care for them and they were hand raised. The other litter was left with the family (possibly because the staff were raising 4 white tigers and 4 white lions all around the same age.)

I was able to have the opportunity to get up and close with one of their six Bengal tigers for a 20 minute photo opportunity and spend 30 minutes with 2 of the hand raised 11 month old white lion cubs who were amazing cheeky fiends.

At the end of the tour I was offered the opportunity to volunteer there and I am so looking forward to it. I am hoping to go in my uni breaks but am also hoping to do the certificate 2 in animal studies at Taronga zoo at the same time ahhhhhhhhh so many things to do.

I have good feelings and bad feelings about this place.

First, its amazing place with a hands on approach to caring for their animals and the experience and education I would get I now is second to none.

But Craig as I said before seems to be a ****** (go check out the news paper articles and 60 minutes report) but I do not know him, I can’t judge him until I meet him. I think he’s amazing for what he has done and I’m hoping he can teach me a lot.

All of the cubs I saw were declawed and I think many of the older animals, definitely the tigers. This is a cruel practise that can cause deformities but at the same time these animals are used in public interactions and it is safer. But does that excuse it or is he just not training his animals well enough.

Many of the cages were small and some were makeshift though the park is a private park and does rely on private donations. Also I am spoilt with our Australian zoo with lots of funding.

I would definitely recommend visiting the place its one of kind.

Panthera-leo-girl

I know most of the names of the animals and may be able to post pictures if people want to see them.
 
Sorry to go way back to the very first page of this thread, but I'd like to comment on some aspects stated there:

-There is no proof for the assumption that the white colour in lions is an atavism in regard to extinct antecessors being adapted to Northern habitats. This is similar to the incorrect reasoning that white tigers are adapted to a snowy habitat.
Instead, it's just an occasional mutation like wooly cheetahs or red leopards.

However, one has to differentiate here: while the king cheetah pattern or melanism doesn't seem to effect the animal involved negatively and might even be an advantage, like in the case of black panthers in dark forests, this doesn't seem to be the case in terms of white lions & tigers. Additionally, the inbreeding undertaken by zoos, circuses, private men etc. only lead to several losings in terms of general health. Additionally, the mixed subspecies origin of many white tigers add to them being disqualified from official breeding programs.
HYBRID AND MUTANT ANIMALS

-A lot of zoos claim they're keeping "real Barbary lions", even wagging around with rather dubious "positive DNA testing" (whatever that means in this case) results. So far, various inquiries have failed to bring up a "real" Barbary lion, and the re-breeding project was closed down. The deliberate cross-breeding of lions by zoos & animal traders like Hagenbeck in the 19th/20th century nevertheless made sure that at least a few droplets of "barbary" blood might be found in many of our zoo lions.
Other extinct lion "subspecies" seem to be less interesting-see Novosibirsk Zoo & alleged Cape lions.
Has Rare Lion of Africa's Cape Eluded Extinction?
 
somehow I doubt things like that really bother idiots like "the Lion Man". For all his talk about "conservation", he is purely a showman and cares only for what he can get out of it.
 
lion man's baboon....

you know just thinking, i remember reading something about a chacma baboon in NZ coming from a private wildlife park and being integrated with auckland's (non-breeding) troop.

think this "foxy" might be the one.....
 
patrick said:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................wha?!!! huh?



did somebody say jaguar?!!!!
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Yes Pat, there is a bit of info on the net saying they have or are going to have them, but I "think" it might be a media mistake, I hope not :D
 
They lost me when it was pointed out that he declaws his cubs.

He shouldn't be allowed to keep big cats if he is going to deliberately deform them like that. (Why not rip their canines out too - that'll make them safer!)
 
anyone know NZ law on de-clawing big cats? I guess it must be allowable but I really don't think it should be.
 
Hi thanks for all of your replies its great to talk to some people that are actually interested in my big cat rants. Zoo-boy I also read all the same articles you have and when I went there it definitely seemed that most of the people there are volunteers/ family or stay out of love of the cats (such as the builders). There was one South African man who originally worked for the park where the white lions are from and in fact raised all of the white lions. He lives on site and has for two years and is most likely now a partner or something similar as he had access to all the animals.

When I was there, there were no jaguars this is misprint by the TV network who being ignorant think that cheetahs are jaguars. But they are sourcing a female leopard for their black leopard.

As to the declawing I also think it is a deplorable practice and if he was as good a trainer as he says he is why does he not teach them to mind their claws as he does with their biting.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sometimes I just want to steal them and run away and TREAT THEM RIGHT!!!!

...On another note foxy the baboon and the original couple of the "wild pride" were rescued from a circus by other people, which Craig then dubiously removed from them. The male is over 22 and when in the circus had his claws removed and his canines filed down.

Foxy was one of those monkeys that rode around on a bicycle in the ring.

As for the condition of the exhibits hmmm.... indri and kali and all the orange Bengal tigers, as well as the cheetahs and the old couple from the wild pride had quite large new enclosures probably the size of a large back yard. The leopard was in too small enclosure that was complete covered and it needed to not only be larger but taller. The white tigers are in deplorably small gravel cages but luckily the new enclosure was almost ready to go when I was there late last year. This was a very large enclosure that included a stream, trees and a man made pool. they were planning to see if all the tiger could live in there together but that is unrealistic and were also planning to divide the cage and rotate the animals between that and their old cages which would be moderised and expanded.
The wild pride minus the old male and his wife had their enclosure expanded but was otherwise unchanged.
The white lions were in a new enclosure that is about the size of two /three netball courts. The older cubs (the three lions and one white tiger) were in a large enclosure that had very flimsy chicken wire but it was attached to thick wooden poles. Zion and his sister, Gandor and his female lived attached to the lion man’s house in quite small enclosures but he apparently works with them every day in a private training field that you don’t see on the tour. The 11-month-old cubs (the four white tiger cubs and the four white lion cubs) lived in a very small and makeshift cage that was made out of those construction fences and were moved to an indoor sleeping area every night, which was where I was able to play with two of the cubs.

The volunteers and my guide assured me that most of the cages I saw were temporary and they have a three builders they employ all the time that improve upon the cages.

The cubs are walked every morning and night, as too are the juveniles and some of the older cats. The training field is also used for big romps with the cubs and the volunteer apparently.

That’s about it

But one thing I didn’t mention is obviously the white lions are related and many of the cats caged together are siblings such as the wild pride and Aslan, Narina and savannah who live in a large enclosure near the orange tigers. All of the females have implants at the moment except for the cheetah while they try to come up to speed with their large cub boom.


One excuse they gave when I asked about inbreeding say in the wild pride case was that lions inbreed in the wild. That all of the mothers, sisters and daughters live together and the father covers them all and so it is natural. I thought this wasn’t true as the sons are driven away and a father’s time at the top may only last for a couple of months or years not enough time for inbreeding to occur. ???????????? Please explain.
As you may have guessed by now I am a big cat lover/ enthusiast/ stalker and am always looking for things that people recommend to me such as animal behavior or care books. Does anybody have any?

I would recommend the Mabel stark book, Zamba the greatest lion in the world and exoticcatz.com which is website for exotic cat owners in America and all over the world.

Lion girl

Ps. Does anybody know how I can post pictures of trip I have so many!
….

Yes I have now stopped writing
 
lion man facility

I know a bit about the place and Craig Busch. Advice would be to stay away from him and the place. His practices with his animals are at best dubious and his business dealing even worse. Volunteers have not lasted for good reasons.
 
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