Live prey

Vulpes

Vulpes

Well-Known Member
could someone confirm the law regarding the feeding of live vertebrate prey to captive animals in the UK? I always understood it was illeagal but then somebody told me that it was ok if the animal has a safe place to escape!

Ethically is it right? I have to say I am not a fan but I was in San francisco zoo last year and the bears are fed live fish! I felt a bit sorry for the fish but the bears loved it! I would imagine great stimulation.

I read an interesting article recently about mate killing in clouded leopards. It suggested the drive to kill was so strong in the cats that they misplaced it towards a mate when they had nothing else to kill. Apparently Goshawks present the same mate killing behaviour, however goshawks that are flown at live quarry outside the breeding season do not kill their mates!
 
Vulpes said:
I read an interesting article recently about mate killing in clouded leopards. It suggested the drive to kill was so strong in the cats that they misplaced it towards a mate when they had nothing else to kill.
Click to expand...


I have not heard about a inate drive to kill???
Would be interested to hear moe on this subject.

Personally l am for the live vertebrate. Being used to enrich captive animals. Just not sure on the guidelines l would expect.
A cute white pet rabbitt in a lion enclosure.....
 
Vulpes said:
Ethically is it right? I have to say I am not a fan but I was in San francisco zoo last year and the bears are fed live fish! I felt a bit sorry for the fish but the bears loved it! I would imagine great stimulation.
Click to expand...

There is also bear exhibits with fish at the Minnesota Zoo and Woodland Park Zoo in Seatle. The Los Angeles zoo occasionally puts some goldfish and crayfish inside the otters' exhibit. I've also seen the chimps at the LA zoo catch wild squirrels and eat them.
 
Vulpes said:
could someone confirm the law regarding the feeding of live vertebrate prey to captive animals in the UK? I always understood it was illeagal but then somebody told me that it was ok if the animal has a safe place to escape!
Click to expand...

Sorry but if you did provide a safe place for the animals to escape to then its not really feeding live prey to them. :confused:

It is illeagal to feed live prey to captive animal.
 
The feeding of live vertebrates to captive animals is a legally grey area but is generally considered to be illegal, according to the 1911 protection of animals act. I am unaware if there have been any prosecutions for the feeding of live vertebrate prey.

I would imagine now that with the Animal Welfare Act, there would certainly be more of a case to argue that the feeding of live vertebrate prey is illegal.

Unfortunately the majority animal welfare laws are a minefield and poorly defined in the majority of cases as to what is exactly legal and illegal.
A good example of this is the five freedoms which are the base for the animal welfare bill. It states that all animals should be free from fear and distress (therefor suggesting that live feeding is illegal), but at the same time statesthat all animals should be free to display most normal behavior (which includes hunting and feeding on live prey).

I realise that this probably hasn't made the issue any clearer. I think its best to assume that the feeding of live vertebrates is illegal.

Having said this it is still a very common practise particularly with private snake keepers.
Its also very common in the public aquariums, particularly those displaying sharks in as part of large multi species tanks. The standard aquarium stance is that they they don't purposely allow the bigger fish to feed on the smaller fish (what the majority of sharks are 'hand fed' by divers) but they do acknowledge that it happens, and in some cases it happens a lot.

I know that some zoos in Europe (sorry I don't know which ones) where experimenting with visitor receptions to the feeding of live vertebrate prey. From what I remember the findings where along the lines of rats and smaller are acceptable but people drew the line at 'fluffy bunnies'. It was also mentioned that the live prey would have escape areas and if the they stayed in the enclosure for longer than a set period (I remember 7 days being mentioned) that the animal was pardoned. Maybe this is where the idea of live feeding being legal if there are escape zones comes from.

Sorry for going on a bit there.
Ive been viewing the forums for a while but this is my first post so hello everyone :-)
 
The article on Clouded leopards was published in an old RATEL I will try and find it and give you the date if you want to look it up.

I think if you have a small area that the prey can enter and not be followed is the way it works then basically its the animals own fault if it strays outside this area.

See I think that the chase is the only real benifit here and if we are talking about live domestic mice or rabbits the flee response has been bred out of them. one only needs to type rabbit vs snake or mouse vs snake in to youtube to see how a mouse reacts to a snake, sniffs it to see what it is usually right on the lips!

I dont like to see mammals being used as live prey, anybody remember the shocking videos of the cows in China being fed live to the tigers? That is a disgrace! However if cats were being trained to kill for release back to the wild I think that live wild rabbits that would run would be acceptable.

Fish I think are a different story, (its weird how we empathise with certain aniamls) The action at the bear pool at San francisco was amazing and the crowds loved it almost as much as the bears! I didnt hear one person say they felt sorry for the fish! Even the little kids. I could imagine a real good otter pool with the introduction of a couple of live fish! The underwater action would be brilliant!
 
Arachnerd said:
The feeding of live vertebrates to captive animals is a legally grey area but is generally considered to be illegal, according to the 1911 protection of animals act. I am unaware if there have been any prosecutions for the feeding of live vertebrate prey.

I would imagine now that with the Animal Welfare Act, there would certainly be more of a case to argue that the feeding of live vertebrate prey is illegal.

Unfortunately the majority animal welfare laws are a minefield and poorly defined in the majority of cases as to what is exactly legal and illegal.
A good example of this is the five freedoms which are the base for the animal welfare bill. It states that all animals should be free from fear and distress (therefor suggesting that live feeding is illegal), but at the same time statesthat all animals should be free to display most normal behavior (which includes hunting and feeding on live prey).

I realise that this probably hasn't made the issue any clearer. I think its best to assume that the feeding of live vertebrates is illegal.
Click to expand...

You are quite correct the whole issue is a muddle, but it is against the law (in the UK at least) to feed any vertebrate live. It is true that the animal welfare bill states that all animals should be free from fear and distress, and this applies to vertebrate food items too. That said it appears that invertebrates can be still fed in live, and thus do not experience any fear or distress...


Arachnerd said:
Its also very common in the public aquariums, particularly those displaying sharks in as part of large multi species tanks. The standard aquarium stance is that they they don't purposely allow the bigger fish to feed on the smaller fish (what the majority of sharks are 'hand fed' by divers) but they do acknowledge that it happens, and in some cases it happens a lot.
Click to expand...

This is definitely a grey area. Having not worked in a large public aquarium, I cannot say for sure, but I would imagine that aquarium managers deem some species to be 'acceptable' losses, certainly with those that are easily obtainable. Generally though the large predatory species are hand-fed (and even to the point of overweight) to reduce predation.

Arachnerd said:
I know that some zoos in Europe (sorry I don't know which ones) where experimenting with visitor receptions to the feeding of live vertebrate prey. From what I remember the findings where along the lines of rats and smaller are acceptable but people drew the line at 'fluffy bunnies'. It was also mentioned that the live prey would have escape areas and if the they stayed in the enclosure for longer than a set period (I remember 7 days being mentioned) that the animal was pardoned. Maybe this is where the idea of live feeding being legal if there are escape zones comes from.
Click to expand...

There is a high risk of the intended prey actually harming the animal; a well satiated snake will leave live mice or rats alone, until feeling hungry again. In that time they could easily sustain gnaw marks.

Overall I am not a fan of live-feeding. Proponents of the practice mention the benefit of 'natural' behaviour. With all the limits of other aspects of natural behaviour on captive animals, and the fact that enrichment can supplement the feeding of dead meat, there is little call for it.
 
Vulpes said:
The article on Clouded leopards was published in an old RATEL I will try and find it and give you the date if you want to look it up.
Click to expand...

It would be to do with the breeding program at Howletts. They did suffer a number of deaths of females due to aggressive males, until they came up with the scheme of introducing a young male to an older female. Not sure how other zoos get on, but Howletts does have the best record with cloudies. Never heard of anything linked to the need to hunt food though.

Vulpes said:
... However if cats were being trained to kill for release back to the wild I think that live wild rabbits that would run would be acceptable.
Click to expand...

The feeding of live vertebrates for animals that are to be released in the wild is a far more acceptable situation. Most small predators are unlikely to need teaching of how to tackle prey items, but I could see how a large predator would need to know how to 'correctly' tackle a large prey item. However it must be done properly: the South Chinese tigers learning to hunt in a private game reserve in South Africa is just plain wrong.

Vulpes said:
Fish I think are a different story, (its weird how we empathise with certain aniamls) The action at the bear pool at San francisco was amazing and the crowds loved it almost as much as the bears! I didnt hear one person say they felt sorry for the fish! Even the little kids. I could imagine a real good otter pool with the introduction of a couple of live fish! The underwater action would be brilliant!
Click to expand...

Fish are a different propostion to invertebrates and other vertebrates. I don't agree with placing fish in a pond just big enough for the intended animal to easily hunt them down. There must be some opportunity for fish to seek cover. Bears are not the most proficient of anglers, and given the right dimensions of the pool, would have to work hard to catch fish. It would a short term feeding display for otters, hardly a 'fair' contest on the fish concerned, and not one I would agree with. It must be remembered that when animals hunt in the wild they regularly miss their target. There is no point setting the prey up with the contest loaded against them, nor for the predator. They must learn that it doesn't always end successfully.
 
SWP Lion enclosure, has wild rabbits in it. Do the lions ever catch them?
 
tetrapod said:
You are quite correct the whole issue is a muddle, but it is against the law (in the UK at least) to feed any vertebrate live. It is true that the animal welfare bill states that all animals should be free from fear and distress, and this applies to vertebrate food items too. That said it appears that invertebrates can be still fed in live, and thus do not experience any fear or distress... .
Click to expand...

The feeding of live vertebrates is not expressly stated as being illegal in the 1911 Protection of Animals Act (the correct legislation in this instance), but is implied. This is why the common perception is that the feeding of live vertebrates is illegal. Personally I against live vertebrate feeding to captives (if its animals being rehabilitated for release to the wild i can understand it) and would regard it as illegal. As to if you would actually be prosecuted or it I am unsure, and do not know of any cases.

Invertebrates can indeed be legally live fed, the reason for this is that invertebrates are not legally classed as animals according to the Protection of Animals Act or the Animal Welfare Bill. If they can experience pain or distress is an entirely different matter that no one seams to be able to agree on. I certainly believe that some species can.

tetrapod said:
This is definitely a grey area. Having not worked in a large public aquarium, I cannot say for sure, but I would imagine that aquarium managers deem some species to be 'acceptable' losses, certainly with those that are easily obtainable. Generally though the large predatory species are hand-fed (and even to the point of overweight) to reduce predation..
Click to expand...

You are entirely right. From my experience in large public aquariums this certainly happens.

tetrapod said:
There is a high risk of the intended prey actually harming the animal; a well satiated snake will leave live mice or rats alone, until feeling hungry again. In that time they could easily sustain gnaw marks.
Click to expand...

Again entirely true, an excellent reason against live vertebrate feeding. And from my experience the real reason most private keepers don't live vertebrate feed.

tetrapod said:
Overall I am not a fan of live-feeding. Proponents of the practice mention the benefit of 'natural' behaviour. With all the limits of other aspects of natural behaviour on captive animals, and the fact that enrichment can supplement the feeding of dead meat, there is little call for it.
Click to expand...

Personally i Fell this to be a wise sentiment that closely matches my own.
 
reading this thread reminds me of a man in scotland who wants to exhibit bears, wolves, elk, boar etc together and allow them to hunt each other, (over a massive area), the law said he needed to obtain a zoo licence but that would mean the animals would have to be exhibited separatley.
 
In Australia you can buy feeder fish at any fish shop that are especially for feeding to bigger fish e.g. murray cod, oscars.
 
I'm a softie; I even feel bad feeding earthworms to my cichlids!:o

As for animals such as big cats; I think the hunting "drive", the necessity to hunt (if you like) is often exaggerated by some people. Lions in the wild, for example, won't bother hunting if they can scavenge.
 
Wild Arctic at Seaworld has trout in their polar bear exhibit, but generally the bears are too lazy to bother hunting the fish.

And the seal santuray exhibit at Sydney Aquarium has lots of live fish too.
 
Marc said:
At the Antwerp Zoo only a few reptiles get live preys :), just some little insects :). But still zoo animals never lose their hunting instinct. Watch this movie from lions hunting on a Heron at the Artis zoo in Amsterdam:

leeuwen voeren in artis - YouTube
Click to expand...

The quality of the video is so bad that I can´t really see whether they killed the heron or not. Do you know?

I found this video of Polar Bears killing a Mallard in their enclosure in Prague Zoo, but I don´t think it was "hunting", it looks like they see the Mallard as another toy and don´t really know what to do with it...

1.4.2011 Zoo Praha - Medv?di vs Kachna - YouTube
 
I think you can safely say that the heron died. The lions seemed to keep hold of it and would have probably played with it until it died from it's injuries.
 
Mr T said:
I think you can safely say that the heron died. The lions seemed to keep hold of it and would have probably played with it until it died from it's injuries.
Click to expand...

Ok then. I just had a problem to see where the heron actually is on that video, I only know there was a heron because Marc said so :-)
 
Big cats in zoos regularly catch lots of birds for themselves.
Great apes like to catch things but I don't think they often eat them, putting them in a pillowcase and throwing them up in the air or chucking them at visitors being more amusing!
 
Yeah, it looks like it. I find amusing that the birds let the predators catch them. I mean, there are lots of ponds in Prague Zoo, why did the Mallard landed in Polar Bear enclosure? and didn´t he fly off after realizing he´s there with two large bears? Or why would the heron come to the lion enclosure voluntarily? Did they "unlearn" the basic instincts because they are no real predators in their environment? I mean, c´mon, you´re in a tiny pool with a large bear and you´re not scared? :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top