It would be too warm to exhibit Gentoo penguins outside so they would need a purpose built refrigerated house, which is not going to happen at London. The cost of building and running this would prohibit this.
ZSL London Zoo London Zoo discussion thread
- Thread starter Fallax
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It would be too warm to exhibit Gentoo penguins outside so they would need a purpose built refrigerated house, which is not going to happen at London. The cost of building and running this would prohibit this.
The events at London Aquarium (which is reaching limited international attention here in the US) is a warning that Subantarctic penguins are not a good investment right now unless you are a facility that is one thousand percent committed to the program. The majority of public response I'm seeing is from people who have no clue or concern if the needs of the penguins involve refrigerated air - just that they don't get natural sunshine is all they need to hear. There are legitimate complaints about the aquarium exhibit, but even world-class exhibits could be in danger if this attitude were to spread further, and I don't buy that most people are comparing with industry standards.
I think it's a shame London lacks room for pinnipeds, especially as they seem present at many urban facilities in the US - they're active and charismatic. The Mappins being developed into a seal area is an inspired idea but it would probably be too costly to work, unfortunately, especially if they couldn't support pinnipeds at their larger Whipsnade campus.
The Mappins are such a difficult area to really assess what to do, especially with the former aquarium and the unused mountains involved. Wallabies are a necessary species to keep (well, macropods are of some kind) but could probably be relocated elsewhere in the facility, so I lean towards turning the Mappins into some kind of bear habitat again. That to me seems like the craziest ABC species group missing at London, especially with the Winnie the Pooh connection, and would be less expensive than redeveloping for pinnipeds, but considering they attempted this previously, I'm not hopeful.
I think it's a shame London lacks room for pinnipeds, especially as they seem present at many urban facilities in the US - they're active and charismatic. The Mappins being developed into a seal area is an inspired idea but it would probably be too costly to work, unfortunately, especially if they couldn't support pinnipeds at their larger Whipsnade campus.
The Mappins are such a difficult area to really assess what to do, especially with the former aquarium and the unused mountains involved. Wallabies are a necessary species to keep (well, macropods are of some kind) but could probably be relocated elsewhere in the facility, so I lean towards turning the Mappins into some kind of bear habitat again. That to me seems like the craziest ABC species group missing at London, especially with the Winnie the Pooh connection, and would be less expensive than redeveloping for pinnipeds, but considering they attempted this previously, I'm not hopeful.
I've always thought the Mappins would make a wonderful (walk in?) vulture/ raptor aviary. The whole area, including mountains, would need to be covered in in a modern lightweight mesh with high posts, but this would allow preservation of the existing structure (esp. if the supports were (slightly) external to the current structure). If the right birds were included (see Berlin Tierpark), it could be a wonderful exhibit with birds using soaring down from the high areas. Expensive? - absolutely...but frankly, any development of that area will be. The internal area needs shoring up of course (which would add to the cost) but that could include some access and smaller exhibits - perhaps along the lines of Budapest's 'Magic Mountain'. It's easy to think of issues with something like this, but whatever is done, it needs to be both radical and future-proof.
Oh, I didn’t realise they were that sensitive, although I knew they had temperature control at the aquarium. I know London has supported King penguins before (keeping them mixed in with the others at the Pool), how come they can survive outside whilst Gentoos can’t?
I do agree bears would be a good fit, I think the issue is more finding the right species of bear. Sloth bears were there for some years of course, but they just aren’t that active of a species (or maybe it was that they didn’t do that well, I believe the female had pre-existing behavioural problems?).
Spectacled could be good, and I’ve seen that idea floated here before, so if it did happen it would probably be with them. ZSL don’t currently hold any though, so perhaps that’s a deciding factor in whether that kind of idea would go ahead.
That’s a good idea, although I’m not sure how vultures in walkthroughs work. Raptors are fairly doable though, given that they kept a Kite in the Snowdon up until its redevelopment.
In terms of a bird walkthrough, they could probably add in the same or similar species to the Snowdon if they really wanted to recapture that kind of experience. I do think reintroducing cranes in particular to the zoo would be good, and as that area used to contain them it would be a nice homage to the past (as well as much more visible than they were in the Snowdon, as they only ever occupied the very bottom level).
I have heard of major concerns over Bird Flu in the last few years though, so bird walkthrough enclosures are kinda on hold. They were planning on introducing their African Grey Parrots to the Snowdon, living beside the Colobus monkeys, but the disease concerns mean it was scrapped.
The Red Duiker was also meant to be moved down there, but I think the consideration was again that visibility from the zoo itself wouldn’t be easy (much like with the cranes), and having those in with the Okapi seems to be working well
A little end note: I’ve also thought that, if they stuck with the Outback theming, it would be good to plant a Eucalyptus tree or two (or just climbing structures) and keep some koalas there. They’re pretty popular species and wouldn’t interact with the animals at ground level, can’t remember if I mentioned it before but it’s something I’m sure has been considered too
DCzootripper
Well-Known Member
I do think it would be wonderful to have pinnipeds, almost definitely impossible to renovate the mappins to house them, I think the most probable place for keeping them is probably the Warthog and Painted Dog exhibits, which have a combined space of between 0.5 to 0.75 acres, which is a reasonable size, and would provide a nice overhead view of them swimming. Some cons with that idea is of course they would have to landscape the enclosure to have a pool for the sea lions, and they would have to get rid of the warthogs and painted dogs. They could probably move the warthogs into one of the yards at the cassons, but I would say they would certainly need to move the Painted dogs to whipsnade, which they already have a substantial sized enclosure for them, but it would mean losing an endangered species, and a big carnivore which London Zoo are seriously lacking, with only really the lions and tigers left if the Painted dogs were to leave. I would also suggest the only real way of keeping pinnipeds in that area is if they were Cape Fur Seals to keep the African theme running.
Oh, I didn’t realise they were that sensitive, although I knew they had temperature control at the aquarium. I know London has supported King penguins before (keeping them mixed in with the others at the Pool), how come they can survive outside whilst Gentoos can’t?
I do agree bears would be a good fit, I think the issue is more finding the right species of bear. Sloth bears were there for some years of course, but they just aren’t that active of a species (or maybe it was that they didn’t do that well, I believe the female had pre-existing behavioural problems?).
Spectacled could be good, and I’ve seen that idea floated here before, so if it did happen it would probably be with them. ZSL don’t currently hold any though, so perhaps that’s a deciding factor in whether that kind of idea would go ahead.
That’s a good idea, although I’m not sure how vultures in walkthroughs work. Raptors are fairly doable though, given that they kept a Kite in the Snowdon up until its redevelopment.
In terms of a bird walkthrough, they could probably add in the same or similar species to the Snowdon if they really wanted to recapture that kind of experience. I do think reintroducing cranes in particular to the zoo would be good, and as that area used to contain them it would be a nice homage to the past (as well as much more visible than they were in the Snowdon, as they only ever occupied the very bottom level).
I have heard of major concerns over Bird Flu in the last few years though, so bird walkthrough enclosures are kinda on hold. They were planning on introducing their African Grey Parrots to the Snowdon, living beside the Colobus monkeys, but the disease concerns mean it was scrapped.
The Red Duiker was also meant to be moved down there, but I think the consideration was again that visibility from the zoo itself wouldn’t be easy (much like with the cranes), and having those in with the Okapi seems to be working well
A little end note: I’ve also thought that, if they stuck with the Outback theming, it would be good to plant a Eucalyptus tree or two (or just climbing structures) and keep some koalas there. They’re pretty popular species and wouldn’t interact with the animals at ground level, can’t remember if I mentioned it before but it’s something I’m sure has been considered too
They haven't kept king penguins since 2004, at which point they were being kept in the Lubetkin penguin pool, so I do not think the focus at that time was whether the penguins were too warm or not.
They do have a Vulture Walk Through Exhibit at Zoo Berlin already
Oh also about the Snowdon Aviary, I had never seen the aviary with birds still as inhabitants, but I imagine it was allot nicer to look at with more activity going on. Personally I think they should have Semi-Aquatic Birds to live in the ground of the aviary, they could move the flamingos and pelicans in from three island pond, and then maybe add some ibis and spoonbills for more vertical energy too.
I’m not really sure that the space would work well for Pinnipeds though, given it’s a long run of enclosures instead of one centralised area. The canal also serves as a double-safety barrier in preventing potential escapes (although the chances are slim), which for Pinnipeds would essentially be a highway
I also think losing the Painted Dogs and Warthogs would really have an impact on the Africa theme, as they’re both animals that can reasonably be found alongside giraffes and zebra and ostriches. None of the African Pinnipeds really are, although I can see it paying off if they augment the middle “V” section into a tank area (but this may need to be done canal-side too, which would be an extra cost that would only benefit non-visitors).
Well, why not simply move the Painted Dogs to the Mappins and give them free reign? It’s a lot more open than their current home, would allow them to get further from the public without retreating indoors, and they’d have a variety of terrain to play on.
The wallabies could probably be moved to the disused Anteater Lawn, and the Emus could take one of the enclosures at the Cassons opposite the Warthog (or join the wallabies at the Lawn if there’s enough space). It would mess with the theming of Tiger Territory, but they certainly wouldn’t do badly if given the larger Babirusa/Elephant enclosure.
Emus are also a lot more vocal than people realise, and hearing their low booms/rumbles within the Cassons would be a nice way to evoke the former inhabitants
That’s almost exactly what they had in there, except of course all the birds could fly (particularly the Ibis, which would perch in all the highest places). I don’t see them gelling well with the Colobus monkeys though, and the ongoing (and reasonable) concerns about Bird Flu will probably prevent any birds from being added there for the foreseeable future :T
I didn’t want to muddy the news thread, so I figured here would be a better place to ask — I will be visiting the London Zoo for the first time on Sunday, 07 December, and I would love any tips or tricks from locals ahead of time! Thanks to anyone in advance
I didn’t want to muddy the news thread, so I figured here would be a better place to ask — I will be visiting the London Zoo for the first time on Sunday, 07 December, and I would love any tips or tricks from locals ahead of time! Thanks to anyone in advance
Well you certainly came to the right place (although the news thread would have been fine too), here’s the main things to know:
1. The Dragon House is exit-only at the capybara end (although I’m sure it wasn’t beforehand, might change in future), so you’d want to go through the side next to the Outback/Mappins if you want to easily see both. It takes you in a pretty good loop and it’s all near the entrance either way.
2. In With The Lemurs (which I usually call the Lemur House) is only accessible from outside, but it exits into the Clore Pavillon (where the rainforest and nightlife animals are), so it’s worth walking up to the lemurs entrance first if you want to see them all in one go (it’s closest by going through the tunnel by the entrance, but if you go over via the tunnel at the other end it wouldn’t take long to walk down to either).
3. The Cassons/former Elephant House (there aren’t elephants at the zoo anymore) is only viewable from the outside, as the inside is a ticketholders-only Santa’s Grotto. The entry doors and pathways are still there, but one is for the grotto and the other is just unused.
4. The Penguin Pool doesn’t actually have penguins in it, it’s a Grade I listed building which means they can’t remove the sign. The penguins can be found at Penguin Beach, which is in the central area by the main lawns (you’ll know it when you see it, it’s also where the new Reptile House and Tortoise House are).
5. There are free drinking fountains all over the zoo, which should also be on the map. Could be useful to bring your own bottle to fill up, the fountain by Penguin Beach can sometimes spill a little though.
6. If you’re travelling through Land of the Lions, it’s best to take the pathway by the moat/vultures. The other one is quite long and meandering, but it’s still fun to take if you have the time and want to see things from above.
7. Don’t stand directly underneath any of the animals in the walkthroughs if you can help it. Especially the lemurs. Sloths should be ok though.
If you want to know anything else, including where to find your favourite animals/when best to see them, just ask and I’ll try to let you know
I was actually already typing here though, because a random development idea for the Penguin Pool came into my head today
It occurred to me: why not build a large greenhouse around the structure?
If the issues with augmenting the structure come from additions to it, surely something surrounding it wouldn’t count? You’d essentially be leaving the structure untouched as there’s enough extra room in the area to ensure it never has to touch the pool whatsoever, a bit like the dome from The Simpsons Movie (but obviously way smaller and a different shape).
It may not sound like a worthwhile change, but being able to cover and control the temperature around the enclosure would be a total game changer. It could solve the issues keeping weather-sensitive animals from staying there, and the water drainage concerns could be completely mitigated if rain is unable to fall into it.
Some random ideas I had for this which will no doubt never work, but are fun to speculate on:
1. Australian Enclosure - Basically a reworked version of having wombats together with koalas, which could work if the ramps are used to hold up a wooden climbing structure (could probably be justified if it’s not strictly affixed, only resting on them), and there should be enough room for wombats to burrow if the bottom is filled up high with sand/dirt.
2. Coconut Crabs - Kinda out there I know, but it’s not really the worst place to put them. Plenty of room, minimal or no water if they prefer (they aren’t particularly aquatic), and the ramps could be used for basic climbing.
3. Chinese Alligators - Essentially the setup from 2004, but with the added benefit of it being temperature-controlled for them to reside in long-term. It also opens it up for other semi-aquatic reptiles to stay in, although the pool itself still isn’t deep enough for something like a saltwater crocodile :T
Paul.Haerle
Well-Known Member
I wouldn‘t worry about the mix between Colobus and birds; Doué-la-Fontaine mixes Hamlyn‘s Monkeys with several bird species (Blue-bellied Rollers are the smallest ones) and Hamlyn‘s Monkeys have the same temperament.
Cobi
Well-Known Member
I was actually already typing here though, because a random development idea for the Penguin Pool came into my head today
It occurred to me: why not build a large greenhouse around the structure?
If the issues with augmenting the structure come from additions to it, surely something surrounding it wouldn’t count? You’d essentially be leaving the structure untouched as there’s enough extra room in the area to ensure it never has to touch the pool whatsoever, a bit like the dome from The Simpsons Movie (but obviously way smaller and a different shape).
It may not sound like a worthwhile change, but being able to cover and control the temperature around the enclosure would be a total game changer. It could solve the issues keeping weather-sensitive animals from staying there, and the water drainage concerns could be completely mitigated if rain is unable to fall into it.
I’m fairly certain that this would never be allowed. I might be in a minority here, but I don’t think the penguin pool needs to be anything other than what it already is.
It doesn’t take up much space compared with the mappin terraces for example and I find it quite attractive and a worthy example of the zoo’s architectural heritage that doesn’t need tweaking or re-using.
I think there are other parts of the zoo much more deserving of creative solutions.
That’s all true, I think the main reason I and others like to brainstorm for it is to give it a purpose beyond appearance. That and the fact it takes up valuable space the zoo would probably really like to use for animal keeping.
But that aside, architecturally it is quite nice. It’s not had the fountain on for a while though, and I think it would be cool to see it used for something like a Christmas light show or display (surely putting fake light-up penguins or elves or something wouldn’t violate the graded listing?)
Either way, it’s obviously quite low on the zoos list of priorities, especially with the new Gorilla Kingdom expansion coming in next year.
cerperal
Well-Known Member
Lovely time of year for a first visit, in my opinion. Presumably you're more focused on tips for the zoo itself, but I would say in addition if you travel there by tube to make the most of the walk through Regent's Park, as it is wonderful in winter (if, admittedly, rather muddy).I didn’t want to muddy the news thread, so I figured here would be a better place to ask — I will be visiting the London Zoo for the first time on Sunday, 07 December, and I would love any tips or tricks from locals ahead of time! Thanks to anyone in advance
Depending on when you arrive, I would say to go initially to the tigers and gorillas. The gorillas tend to be inside and visible during the morning, before going offshow around midday until their lunch at 1-2pm. The tigers have been slightly more visible recently but are generally more shy, with first thing in the morning being the best time to see them. That sets you up fairly well to meander around the rest of the south part of the zoo at a pace of your choosing.
Regarding things easily missed to keep an eye out for, the entrance hallway to the reptile house has viewing into the behind-the-scenes labs and storage areas, and though they change the species in there quite often recently they have held Afia Birago's puddle frogs and Atewa slippery frogs in fairly visible tanks - both of these species are new to captivity and only held in London. There are also Darwin's frogs held in a semi-offshow section on the path from the entrance courtyard leading to the dragons and outback area, the only ones currently held in the West.
As mentioned in an earlier reply, the Lion section is a bloody maze but they will almost certainly be quite visible - generally in the afternoon, the adults are sleeping in front of the glass while the subadult males are playing. The highlight of that area are the incredibly shy small Indian mongooses, held in a small enclosure opposite the langurs and next to "Tiny Giants". You may have to stand reasonably far back and slowly approach due to how timid they are, but they are fairly easy to see nowadays and are the only ones held outside of Asia.
Blackburn Pavillion has too many species to name, but make sure you don't miss the aviaries down the side of the building immediately to the left and right of the entrance.
The tunnels to access the North Bank are at the main entrance square and the area marked as Barclay Court on the map, next to the penguins. The south part of the zoo certainly takes longer to do, but give yourself at least a few hours to do the North Bank. There are a few fairly out-the-way exhibits (notably the dik-dik behind the otters), but the key sections are the rainforest and nocturnal house and Monkey Valley, the colobus walkthrough. The latter only opens in 90 minute intervals, those being 11-12:30 and 14-15:30. The former features the rainforest walkthrough upstairs, with side exhibits holding bokiboky, black-and-rufous sengis and the Lac Alaotra gentle lemur family. The rainforest house has feeding at 3pm, but the sengis are inaccessible during this time. The nocturnal house is going through a bit of a changeover at the moment so its species numbers are somewhat reduced, but all species are fairly easy to see - especially the largest exhibit that features potto, giant jumping rat and mohol bushbabies. I would recommend that you go through Monkey Valley around 2pm, do the rest of the Africa section, arrive at the rainforest house before 3pm to view the sengis and then head downstairs into the nocturnal section once feeding has started.
That should cover the majority of the more specific rarities and hopefully give a slight skeleton for timings of the trickier exhibits. Being a city zoo a lot of space is given over to fairly common species, but the exhibits for them are generally outstanding and of course you have the added element of the historical significance of the buildings. If you have any questions ask any of the staff or volunteers, as they are all very helpful and can generally answer any queries/point you in the right direction.
I don’t think London have kept Kings for many decades, Whipsnade yes!