London Zoo Gorillas

[Mr T]

Jordan I love your enthusiasm but take your time and read your posts and what others have said. I know you are a bright lad but some of your posts on the last few threads you have commented on do not read well or even make sense. It can make you look far less intelligent than I think you are.

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Jordan I love your enthusiasm but take your time and read your posts and what others have said. I know you are a bright lad but some of your posts on the last few threads you have commented on do not read well or even make sense. It can make you look far less intelligent than I think you are.

My mistake, I was thinking it was 2011 for a minute - Sorry about my posts some of them I was trying to give a bit more information on some individual animals some of which some members on this site may not now a lot of information about, I will try and make it clearer in the future.

 

[Pertinax]

You would still then have the problem further down the line when both males are fully mature. Either the fertile male would need to be moved on, or Kesho would end up being moved to a bachelor group. I imagine Kesho will eventually become the founder of a bachelor group somewhere, I don't see them doing anything else.

Yes, I mentioned that outcome above. But it would avoid any further disruption to the current settled group from Kesho's removal and give them a few years before yet another move needed to be made though. I think in the wild strange gorillas sometimes tag onto established groups and a young male would probably be received by the others with comparative ease.

 

[Pertinax]

Or they could move him to an all female group of which all are infertile. But moving him to a bachelor group is probably the most easiest and simplest idea out of the two, possible bachelor groups in the UK;

Be realistic Jordan! Where are these groups of infertile females? There aren't any....

Moving Kesho to a 'bachelor group' is not an easy task either. You can't just take a (near fully) adult male and lump him in with some other strange males somewhere else. It just doesn't work. You could add him to a group where there are younger males as this is how these groups are set-up nowadays, but each time you need a fresh enclosure available/built and several animals of a suitable age to set it up. It is very complicated so every male that can stay where it is without having to be moved, is a big plus as a result. That is why I advocate Kesho staying in his group-to avoid further disruption and for the group's well being generally- but with a junior male being added. They could then start planning where to move one of them at a later stage- if necessary- though it isn't unknown for two adult males to live together with females.

 

[Mr T]

They could then start planning where to move one of them at a later stage- if necessary- though it isn't unknown for two adult males to live together with females.

I believe Kesho is considered to be quite a good natured gorilla, so it may be possible he would get on with another male- Would brilliant if that scenario worked!

 

[Pertinax]

I believe Kesho is considered to be quite a good natured gorilla, so it may be possible he would get on with another male- Would brilliant if that scenario worked!

You are correct- he is considered very playful. He spends time chasing and playing with Mjuku in particular. He also has an eight/nine year old brother(Alf/Sekani) + another younger one(Evindi) which he grew up with in Dublin. I have watched vids of them, its all play, wrestle, play. I am positive he would still accept- even welcome- a male of that age group as a playmate-how it would pan out when both became mature is another matter but two silverbacks(rarely) have lived together with females in zoo groups in the past, e.g. at both Howletts and Basel but its certainly not commonplace.

 

[TARZAN]

I believe Kesho is considered to be quite a good natured gorilla, so it may be possible he would get on with another male- Would brilliant if that scenario worked!

Get Matadi's bags packed and get him sent to Regents Park as soon as possible

 

[Mr T]

Get Matadi's bags packed and get him sent to Regents Park as soon as possible

Who is Matadi?

 

[TARZAN]

Who is Matadi?

Matadi is a young male gorilla who was born at Twycross, he now lives in the batchelor groupe at Paignton, he is nine years old.

 

[Pertinax]

Who is Matadi?

Matadi is the son of Twycross Gorillas Sekondi(now dead) x Ozala and joined Paignton's bachelor group a couple of years ago now. He is exactly(to the month) the same age as Kesho's brother Alf/Sekani in Ireland so would fit the bill perfectly, as would Alf/Sekani- provided he too hasn't got Klinefelter's syndrome like Kesho(unlikely?)

The problem with this in reality is that neither Dublin nor Paignton would probably wish to part with these males as it would reduce their groups-size, but that would be down to studbook recommendations. But if that was the case it certainly wouldn't be difficult to source a male of this age group from somewhere else- even if it had to come from Europe.

Just think, if ZSL did this they could even find themselves at the forefront of Gorilla management, instead of where they are now.

 

[johnstoni.]

But it would avoid any further disruption to the current settled group from Kesho's removal and give them a few years before yet another move needed to be made though. I think in the wild strange gorillas sometimes tag onto established groups and a young male would probably be received by the others with comparative ease.

I hear you, Pertinax, and in this case bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. Indeed, I see your point about his personality lending itself to a captive situation imitating an occurrance in the wild. However, I imagine ZSL are now so risk averse with this group (or are they, given what was tried with Tiny?) that I doubt they would consider this option, even though what I imagine is probably the plan - to wait until a new institution starts up a new bachelor group in the next few years - would not be incompatible with what you are advocating.

 

[Pertinax]

I hear you, Pertinax, and in this case bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. Indeed, I see your point about his personality lending itself to a captive situation imitating an occurrance in the wild. However, I imagine ZSL are now so risk averse with this group (or are they, given what was tried with Tiny?) that I doubt they would consider this option, even though what I imagine is probably the plan - to wait until a new institution starts up a new bachelor group in the next few years - would not be incompatible with what you are advocating.

Its the one method I can see which could both be successful and avoid any further criticism about disrupting the group by removing Kesho etc, plus as you are aware, finding another place for Kesho- now he is technically an 'unwanted' male- wouldn't be easy either as it would have to be in yet another new male group or somewhere that keeps males but where he might still have to be kept alone. A sad outcome for him.

A few years back Basel had a baby fathered it was later discovered by DNA test, by a six(!)year old- Viatu, now Frankfurt's silverback- while he was living in the group. No one was any the wiser, least of all the group's own silverback, Kisoro.

As for any risk, I think its minimal compared to what happened with Tiny. If it didn't work, then they simply move the younger male(which is not so difficult)-and at least they would have tried something.

 

[Gigit]

Matadi is the son of Twycross Gorillas Sekondi(now dead) x Ozala and joined Paignton's bachelor group a couple of years ago now. He is exactly(to the month) the same age as Kesho's brother Alf/Sekani in Ireland so would fit the bill perfectly, as would Alf/Sekani- provided he too hasn't got Klinefelter's syndrome like Kesho(unlikely?)

The problem with this in reality is that neither Dublin nor Paignton would probably wish to part with these males as it would reduce their groups-size, but that would be down to studbook recommendations. But if that was the case it certainly wouldn't be difficult to source a male of this age group from somewhere else- even if it had to come from Europe.

As far as I know, it is accepted that Matadi is a temporary resident. Maybe he should go sooner rather than later while he still remembers what it's like to be a 'real' gorilla rather than a humanised one like his companions.

 

[Pertinax]

As far as I know, it is accepted that Matadi is a temporary resident. Maybe he should go sooner rather than later while he still remembers what it's like to be a 'real' gorilla rather than a humanised one like his companions.

I think a mother-raised male like Matadi won't forget his roots, so to speak, as long as he is living with other Gorillas. The mother-raised one always knows he's a gorilla, while the human-raised one thinks he's partly a human. I don't think they ever cross those barriers. But they can still get messed up being away from females for too long- Oumbie(well over ten years without any female company) was rather an example of that when he first arrived at Twycross. But I think as long as Matadi stays no longer than a few more years at Paignton e.g. until he's a silverback, there won't be any harm done.