Lowland gorillas in Europe 2008

[Kifaru Bwana]

1. According to my records, Yaounde's father IS Tembo. Linda was sent for mating to Artis, Tembo didn't ever leave Artis...

2. 'Bongo 2' and Romina lived together at Rome for about 20 years with no breeding. I think having the cataracts made no difference. In fact, with a proper male, she might well have bred even with the cataracts in place. It was Bongo's fault there was no breeding during all that time.

1. OK, the way you describe things, I seem to have a faint recollection of Linda being in Artis. I wrongfully assumed that since Wassenaar had their own breeding group - am I am right on the last bit? - that Yaounde was sired by their resident male. Not so, well that makes our late Tembo even better represented in the current gorilla EEP (no suprise that Yaounde is doing so well as a silverback given his father's example in later life).

2. As you can see I meant Bongo 2 is a useless gorilla in terms of leading a gorilla troupe. With Romina, I meant any other suitable bachelor silverback and she would have had at least 3-4 offspring represented by now already.


Something new taken out of another thread:

The zoo with the largest number of ancient old apes is probably Frankfurt -
gorilla male Matze, age 50 (and still fertile, his last offspring was born in spring 2007)[unqoute]

Am I correct that Matze only breeds with just the one female? Any chances that a new group may be formed with the newer members in the Frankfurt troupe that do not breed with Matze?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I think this should be here (instead sizzling on the Antwerpen Zoo forum).

There is confusion surrounding the Antwerpen Zoo gorillas.
In the other thread people have come up with the rumour that the younger female might not be a true graueri, but a beringei instead.

I picked it up .. but it will not let go!

M Kumba, no doubt a ssp. gorilla (silverback with no clout or fertile game)
F Victoria, captive-born in 1968 at Antwerpen
F Amahoro, wild-caught and estimated born around 1989. Rescued by the Jane Goodall Institute and taken out to Antwerpen Zoo in October 1993.

The controversy surrounds F Amahoro. Is she a true graueri or possibly beringei?

 

[Pertinax]

I wrongfully assumed that since Wassenaar had their own breeding group - am I am right on the last bit? - that Yaounde was sired by their resident male.
2. As you can see I meant Bongo 2 is a useless gorilla in terms of leading a gorilla troupe. With Romina, I meant any other suitable bachelor silverback and she would have had at least 3-4 offspring represented by now already.

3. I correct that Matze only breeds with just the one female? Any chances that a new group may be formed with the newer members in the Frankfurt troupe that do not breed with Matze?

1. Yes, Wassenaar had a male 'Oscar' but maybe he was no good. Linda definatrely went to Tembo twice, and their first son 'VIP' was the first gorilla birth for Wassenaar- then Yaounde was the 2nd. Tembo has two or three other children I think.

2. Yes, if Romina had lived with a good male from early on, she could have had several offspring already- I think the cataracts wouldn't have stopped her breeding. As she is the only offspring of her parents, she's genetically valuable too- but I think she'll breed again okay at Bristol. She's a lovely- looking female, and big too(same size as her old 'mate' Bongo...)

3. Matz- seems to have lost interest in most of the females in his group. I imagine they will 'pension' him off soon and add a new male?

 

[Pertinax]

I've seen photos of 'Amohoro'. She doesn't look to me like a typical Eastern Lowland gorilla, but nor does she look like a typical member of the mountain/beringei race. Could she be from the Bwindi population? They are supposed to have characteristics of both the other eastern populations.

 

[Yassa]

I don`t think (and don`t hope!) that Matze will be removed from his group. He is 50 years now and not in perfect health so he will probably die in the next 1-3 years and removing him from his family now would be cruel and unnecessary since the females in his group are all genetically well-represented. Gorillas are breeding very well in zoos so producing as many offspring as possible is not necessary. Matze is breeding with super mother Rebecca and he has mated the young female Ruby (who came from Leipzig - actually she is genetically important since her mother is wild-caught and has only one other daugther at the moment but Ruby is so young that she can easily wait a few years). Then there is female Dian from Arnheim who is good breeding age, I have no idea why she is not getting pregnant. The 2 other females, Jule and Dorette, are over 40 and probably too old for breeding. Female Zar Zar who wasn`t getting pregnant neither was moved to Heidelberg 3 years ago and now she has a one year old son, so that worked out great. If the EEP wants Dian to have a baby soon, they should opt for the same solution and send her to another zoo. That would leave Frankfurt with Rebecca and Ruby as breeding females (which is definately enough if not already too much for male who is genetically overrepresented) and 2 old females. When Matze dies, they can easily add one more young female from another zoo so that they`d have 3 breeding age female for the new silverback which would make a very nice group.

It`s so easy to say "the silverback is not breeding (well enough), get rid of him and get a new one" - but what to do with all these non-breeding males? They are individuals with feeling and emotions, intelligent and sensitive, and need the company of females and a good home. And they are usually poor candidates for bachelor groups, having been a group leader for a couple of years.

 

[Pertinax]

removing him from his family now would be cruel and unnecessary since the females in his group are all genetically well-represented. Matze dies, they can easily add one more young female from another zoo so that they`d have 3 breeding age female for the new silverback which would make a very nice group.

It`s so easy to say "the silverback is not breeding (well enough), get rid of him and get a new one" - but what to do with all these non-breeding males? They are individuals with feeling and emotions, intelligent and sensitive, and need the company of females and a good home. And they are usually poor candidates for bachelor groups, having been a group leader for a couple of years.

No, no ,no. Don't get me wrong here- I would NEVER like to see Matz split from his females or sent elsewhere... I did wonder if they might retire him from the breeding group in due course and maybe just keep him with the oldest females- but I imagine its more likely he will die of old age within the group. I agree there is no need either for Frankfurt to be producing anymore gorillas at this stage either and he is very well represented in European breeding groups..

I first saw 'Matz' aged about 10 years when he had just arrived at Frankfurt Zoo. He came from somewhere in America( a circus cage?) where he had lived in very cramped conditions. Consequently he had little room for exercise and he moved about the Frankfurt cage by supporting himself with his arms as his legs were not very strong. fortunately proper care and exercise at Frankfurt meant he soon overcame that problem and turned out to be Frankfurt's most successful male Gorilla ever. I hope he continues to live on in Frankfurt's group for some time to come...

 

[Yassa]

Then let`s hope that this will happen.

 

[Pertinax]

Yes. There are situations where its good for a silverback male to be replaced, in order to further breeding. But Frankfurt and Matz at 50 years old definately don't come into that category....

 

[Yassa]

Good news from Hannover: Zazie gave birth to a healthy baby (of yet unkown gender) in the last days. It`s her 5th, maybe the first son after 4 daughters? It`s Buzandi`s 5th offspring and the 4th surviving (so far).

 

[Pertinax]

That's good news...

Was it you who said that although this group is breeding well, Buzandi has not really integrated into the group that much? Is there a problem? It seems an odd situation as he is breeding well....

 

[Pertinax]

Any news on the Gorilla situation at Berlin with Ivo?

I heard they were going to split the group and add a new male(Yeboah, born at Hanover, son of 'Arti') for the younger (breeding age) females....

 

[Yassa]

Could have been me about Buzandi, I havn`t been in Hanover for a while and the situation might have improved now, but until a year or so again the females were always as far away from him as possible, and I`ve never seen him trying to make contact. The only member of the group who was interested in being near him was young female Josy. Strange that the females allowed him to mate when they were in heat...

I really hope that it`s going better now that his kids are getting older and might make contact with him on their own.

I have not heard any news about the gorillas in Berlin but I wouldn`t be surprised if they get a new male soon. Yeboah sounds like a perfect candidate, mother-raised in a good social environment and the oldest son of a wild-born female. What I know is that Belrin is currently improving and enlarging serveral enclosures in the great ape house with the money earned by Knut. The chimps get a new enclosure - indoor and outdoor - at the place where the 2 old solitary Borneo orang utan males lived. The 2 cages are put together and enlarged in the direction of the visitor area. Outdoors, the old borneon orang utan enclosure gets covered by a mesh and maybe enlarged to make it suitable for the chimps (not that it had been suitable for the orang utans, either...). One of the 2 male orang utans who lived there before died, and the other one has been moved within the big ape house and now shares the enclosure of the siamangs.

An article in the local newspaper mentioned that the gorillas would also get a new enclosure, 3 times bigger then the old one. No idea if this means indoor or outdoor or both, but I am hoping the best.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Yassa+Pertinax,

I am not entirely in agreement with you. I think it is time to dream and have a vision beyond just the captivity stakes. The western lowland gorilla is also on the verge of extinction in the wild and we cannot remain complacent.

Why should we not breed more gorillas in European zoos and have surplus gorillas offered to reintroduction schemes. The John Aspinall zoos' are doing a brilliant job here in Congo-Brazzaville and Gabon.

Time to make a move ... on!

 

[Yassa]

The western lowland gorilla population in the wild stands at serveral 10.000 animals (not sure what the newest estimations say, it used to be more then 100.000 animals a year or maybe 2 ago!) and although they have been upgraded to "critically endangered" recently, it`s still the least endangered gorilla subspecies with all other gorilla subspecies and most other great ape species being much rarer (bonobos, both species of orang utan, and at least one subspecies of chimps - leaves only the eastern and central chimp subspecies who could be less endangered then western lowland gorillas).

Reintroducing great apes is highly difficult and expensive and considering the current situation in the wild, it`s pretty much unnecessary at the moment. It`s surely a good idea to restore gorilla populations which have been wiped out by poaching or ebola, but there are plenty of orphaned gorillas in crowded african sanctuaries who could be used for that too.

It`s also worth a thought if the funds for that wouldn`t be better invested in protecting existing gorilla, bonobo and chimp populations and their habitat. The project of the Aspinall zoo`s has big problems at one of their release sites because the blackbacks and silverbacks left the "safe" area and got much too close to the villages. Some had to be captured and put back into captivity (large island if I remember right). It`s surely no good idea to send more surplus males from Europe to this place.

Last, zoos have to take animal welfare in account, and in Matze`s case this means letting an ancient old silverback pass away surrounded by his family. The welfare of individuals and best breeding results are often in conflict, but in case of western lowland gorillas, who are breeding very well in Europe and the USA and with reintroduction not necessary to restore the wild population, animal welfare must be taken seriously. Zoos are no puppy mills!

 

[Pertinax]

I think I would agree largely with Yassa's comments above. Howletts and Port Lympne reintroductions have not all been successful- as stated above several silverbacks and blackbacks have had to be 'reconfined' after causing trouble near their release areas. Also, despite their successes, its not much publicised that several young 'orphans' sent from the Howletts groups to Africa have died too.

I think each zoo group needs to be treated individually. In a case like Frankfurt, Matz should be allowed to pass away with dignity in his group. Amazingly he's still breeding but like many silverbacks, his interest in some(most) females in his group has dwindled over time. So there will be a natural hiatus in breeding there until a new male replaces him.

I believe that realistically, the European gorillas(with some exceptions like the Aspinall projects) need to be largely managed as a zoo population only, rather than aiming to provide animals for release schemes as well. That will mean more careful planning in future for the production of more young gorillas at many of the zoos involved, taking into account their relatedness and where they can be housed in the future. But at the same time maintaining a stable and balanced population. Quite a juggling act?

 

[Pertinax]

, I havn`t been in Hanover for a while and the situation might have improved now, but until a year or so again the females were always as far away from him as possible, and I`ve never seen him trying to make contact. Strange that the females allowed him to mate when they were in heat...

I really hope that it`s going better now that his kids are getting older and might make contact with him on their own.

I have not heard any news about the gorillas in Berlin but I wouldn`t be surprised if they get a new male soon. Yeboah sounds like a perfect candidate, mother-raised in a good social environment and the oldest son of a wild-born female. An article in the local newspaper mentioned that the gorillas would also get a new enclosure, 3 times bigger then the old one. No idea if this means indoor or outdoor or both, but I am hoping the best.

1. Buzandi. I believe when he first arrived at Hanover he was pretty aggressive- perhaps the females haven't forgotten that and keep away from him- except when they are in oestrus of course The young ones may help to make the group more cohesive- also Buzandi is likely to 'mellow' as he gets older and relationships may become more relaxed.

2. Berlin. Good news if they are to enlarge the Gorilla enclosure. Maybe they will wait until its been done before adding a new male? Ivo is another case where I think it would now be better if he could stay where he is with a couple of non-breeding females for company- and not be transferred away. I'm pretty sure 'Yeboah' would be the additional(?) male as he is mentioned on the EEP list.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Last, zoos have to take animal welfare in account, and in Matze`s case this means letting an ancient old silverback pass away surrounded by his family. The welfare of individuals and best breeding results are often in conflict, but in case of western lowland gorillas, who are breeding very well in Europe and the USA and with reintroduction not necessary to restore the wild population, animal welfare must be taken seriously. Zoos are no puppy mills!

Yassa,

On Frankfurt and Matze:
My plea on behalf of offering surplus captive western lowland gorillas for reintroduction projects, made no mention of the preferred status quo for Matze in Frankfurt Zoo!

However, I do think that the gorilla troupe needs to be split up as Matze is no longer so active in the breeding stakes.
1) Matze should live out his retirement in dignity with 2 of the original and older range gorillas in his group. That is: Rebecca - allthough not particularly old, a favourite of his - and Jule.
2) The younger females - Dian, Fossey (I think this Matze offspring should stay as a stabilising factor in the group) and Ruby should become the core of a newly formed breeding group. An unrelated blackback or silverback should integrate with this unit.

The above moves would happen when the Pongoland exhibit is scheduled to open this summer.



On reintroduction and in situ conservation:
Whereas I accept we may beg to differ on the reintroduction projects - sure problems exist but these can be overcome by building on the experience as we move forward -, I do not think we can treat the captive EEP population as a singular unit.

If one accepts that population management is necessary - and I am convinced we all share this notion - that requires that frequent influx of new genes is necessary in each subpopulation and individuals overrepresented taken out of the breeding pools. The EEP and SSP populations more or less operate with population management in place and are PART of that mega population of western lowland gorillas in captivity.

Both stable captive population are THEN also part of the mega population of wild and captive gorillas. Without active population management some wild gorilla populations will not survive. This is where zoos can move in to contribute their management experience of the species in captivity and assist with proper protection of wild gorilla stocks (and also reintroduction at sites where the species has become extirpated). The trend in wild gorilla populations is a downward spiral, so the less wild gorillas the more urgent becomes that zoos become involved in the Great Ape Crisis (both in Africa and also ... in Asia).

For the above you only have to read the WAZA management guidelines on reintroduction of captive taxa to the wild and the population management for endangered taxa in captivity!

 

[Pertinax]

Yassa,

On Frankfurt and Matze:
However, I do think that the gorilla troupe needs to be split up as Matze is no longer so active in the breeding stakes.
1) Matze should live out his retirement in dignity with 2 of the original and older range gorillas in his group. That is: Rebecca - allthough not particularly old, a favourite of his - and Jule.
2) The younger females - Dian, Fossey (I think this Matze offspring should stay as a stabilising factor in the group) and Ruby should become the core of a newly formed breeding group. An unrelated blackback or silverback should integrate with this unit.
The above moves would happen when the Pongoland exhibit is scheduled to open this summer.

1. I wouldn't have any objection to the Frankfurt group being split in the way you describe. As long as Matz still has a couple of female companions I doubt he wouldn't miss the other females. That is along similar lines to what Rotterdam did with Ernst-'retired' him to Spain with two old females.

2. Do you know if the new Pongoland exhibit at Frankfurt will have the facilities to house two separate groups of Gorillas? Is that what they are planning to do?

3. I heard the young female 'Fossey' has already moved to Valencia.

4. If they do bring a 2nd male in while Matz is still alive, I imagine the most obvious groupings would be;
Matz with Jule/Dorretchen(retirement group)
new male with Rebecca/Dian/Ruby(breeding group).

5. I suppose it depends on how much longer Matz lives(he is nearly a record -breaker now...). What is his health status at present?

 

[Yassa]

My understanding is that the new great ape facility in Frankfurt will be only for one gorilla family. And I have never heard any rumors about splitting the family. Since Rebecca has a less then one year old baby from Matze, she couldn`t be introduced to another male anyway. And I wouldn`t rule out the possibility that she will get pregnant by him again, although I`d prefer to put her on the pill since she and Matze are both overrepresented in the zoo population and this will get a lot worse in the next years.

 

[Pertinax]

Its possible Frankfurt will face a similar situation as Chessington's gorilla group. Their old male Kumba(not as old as Matz) suffered a couple of mild strokes and was actually ousted(rejected) from the group by the females. He is now kept with one female (his original mate 'Baffia') and they will soon be receiving(or may already have done so) a new younger male for the rest of the group- 'Damisi' from Paignton- he's a Matz/Rebecca son....

I suspect Frankfurt may make some changes after the gorillas have moved into Pongoland....it depends how things go with Matz.