Yes it seems rather pointless to me too as it seems there is at least one other female(ZsaZsa?) rearing a baby in the Heidleburg group. If I remember Chuma's first baby was injured in a squabble with the male 'Bobo' and died, and the next died one also.
Lowland gorillas in Europe 2009
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Yes it seems rather pointless to me too as it seems there is at least one other female(ZsaZsa?) rearing a baby in the Heidleburg group. If I remember Chuma's first baby was injured in a squabble with the male 'Bobo' and died, and the next died one also.
Assumbo has led a pretty miserable life since leaving the Uk (Jersey-Twycross- Chessington), for many years living in substandard accomodation with just one female. I doubt Jersey care much about his situation though .
Assumbo has led a pretty miserable life since leaving the Uk (Jersey-Twycross- Chessington), for many years living in substandard accomodation with just one female. I doubt Jersey care much about his situation though .
Would he not be a worthy candidate for breeding with the Twycross or London groups?
Was Assumbo hand-raised or mother-raised? Was he re-integrated into his family unit?
The female at Rostock was elderly and probably non-reproductive (but you are in a better position to judge here given your access to EEP data) ... no surprise to me he did not breed with her!!!
Seem to remember also that Rostock is due to build a new great ape accomodation and it might be that before this project will go ahead the current gorillas will go elsewhere.
Assumbo was one of the first two Gorillas born at Jersey in 1973 (the other was Mamfe, his half brother.) Both grew up at Twycross with two females but as they matured Twycross only needed one male so Asssumbo was sent away. He is still related to the two younger twycross females(their father is his halfbrother) and two at London(one being his sister) so he isn't any use to either place, plus he was handraised.
Assumbo is just one of those males that in those days couldn't be found a suitable place and so ended up in eastern Europe. This was before the days of bachelor groups and nowadays he would more likely have gone to one of those I think. There was verry little chance Assumbo & Sangha would breed- I think it was just a 'pair' arrangement for exhibit purposes.
perhaps Rostock should now have a 'male only' group and Assumbo could be the senior male of a new bachelor group.
Thanks for drawing in the picture!
Is Assumbo actually breeding silverback material yet for another new gorilla troupe in Europe? What is his worth in genetic terms to the European population?
I personally think that is genetics have been under-used and in Rostock he was housed with 2 non breeding females ..., so losing the gene flow game here.
Any thoughts on the value of the early Jersey stocks?
K.B.
Is Assumbo actually breeding silverback material yet for another new gorilla troupe in Europe? What is his worth in genetic terms to the European population?
Any thoughts on the value of the early Jersey stocks?No he isn't.
The Jersey line(Jambo x Npongo & Nandi) contributed a lot in the early days and is very well represented both in Europe, also in America and Australia, though Nandi(Assumbo's mother) does have less offspring in breeding situations than Npongo. But Motaba- Melbourne's breeding male, is from the same parents for example and there is another descendant (Emba) living in the Howletts groups too. Also Zaire in London and her daughter Kamili in Belfast though neither are currently breeding.
Also I wonder if Assumbo would breed anyway, even if placed with new younger females. Its a nice idea but I think in his case on genetic grounds it isn't worth trying and he would do better as the senior male in a bachelor group perhaps.
There are now very few sources for new genetic input into the European Gorilla population. Two males at Fasano in Italy, one in Carbaceno in Spain, one at Touroparc Romaneche in France, one at Longleat(Nico) one in Belfast are still all wildcaught with no offspring, but all but the Belfast male(Gugas) are old and very unlikely to be breeders now even if they were put in a situation with suitable females. It is an increasing problem that the same 'popular' lines- Jersey, Frankfurt, Krefeld, Stuttgart, Rotterdam etc are becoming increasingly over-represented in the population as males(and females) for new groups are still coming from these because the less represented lines do not have suitable animals so readily available. It is a sort of vicious circle where the freely breeding lines tend to 'swamp' the population.
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El IVI estudia al gorila estéril - Valencia - Levante-EMV
Interesting article about the gorillas in Bioparc Valencia - they suspect Mambie is infertile because Fossey isn`t pregnant yet, despite matings. He was to be put under anesthesia to obtain semen and test it.
Sounds not good - the number of infertile males living together with breeding age females is again growing.. I suspect Awali in Barcelona is not fertile, Pesco/Saarbrücken neither, Boulas/Belfast, Ivo/Berlin, now probably Mambie. And then of course the old now-infertile former breeding males Fritz/Nuremberg and Massa/Krefeld. One problem solved (Jitu/Blackpool), many more to go.
Interesting article about the gorillas in Bioparc Valencia - they suspect Mambie is infertile because Fossey isn`t pregnant yet, despite matings. He was to be put under anesthesia to obtain semen and test it.
Sounds not good - the number of infertile males living together with breeding age females is again growing.. I suspect Awali in Barcelona is not fertile, Pesco/Saarbrücken neither, Boulas/Belfast, Ivo/Berlin, now probably Mambie. And then of course the old now-infertile former breeding males Fritz/Nuremberg and Massa/Krefeld. One problem solved (Jitu/Blackpool), many more to go.
I can't see why Mambie should be infertile but you can say the same about other males too(Boulas, Ivo, Bobby(?) Jitu etc) I believe in Awali's case he is a non-mater being very humanised from handraising. I have noticed from photos(including the one on this link) that one of the two females at Valencia has badly plucked arms, indicating stress- if this is Fossey then the problem may be with her, not him.
Mambi grew up largely at Paignton (as did Awali) and several others which lived there have proved to be good breeders after they left, very quickly impregnating females - Richard, Asato, Mapema, Damisi. But infertility does remain a problem, more among the handreared males?.
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But Richard, Asato, Mapema and Damisi have all spent their eary years (before going to Paignton) in family groups, being fully socialized. While Mambie (and Awali and Ivo) never lived in a family group with adult females before going to all-male-groups. I have no idea what the reason for the high number of non-breeding handraised males which never lived in a social group with adult females as infants is - are they physically infertile? Unable to cope with stress? Non mating because of bad socialisation? Not correctly mating due to being badly socialized?
No idea, but it`s a problem and it`s really bad how easy it is to predict which males will fail as breeders and which not.
No idea, but it`s a problem and it`s really bad how easy it is to predict which males will fail as breeders and which not.
Interesting observation, most probably not one obvious reason. Most likely a collection of explanations. Will be interesting to hear from others.
I know that when raised together in pairs. The brother sister mentatlity occurs. Highly reducing the chance of mating. As many of the origional WC founding stock were and still are kept together.
Hand reared all the obvious reasons. Importantly though missing the experiance of growing up in a competiative sexual enviroment.
The dam low sperm count of many captive males and also wild gorillas l hear.
I fully agree with your observations, Yassa. You can almost guarantee if you know their previous history- he'll breed, he won't breed etc. I have no better idea why handraised males fail so badly in the breeding stakes though I can understand the ones that fail to mate completely because of a 'deprived' early background. But with a male like Mambi who has been mating-what causes the problem I wonder.
A lack of previous sexual activity over a long period for whatever reasons, has been suggested as contributing to low quality sperm because of lack of breeding activity- ZSL Bobby may have been in this category- also Jersey Ya Kwanza when he was tested. Is there a clue there I wonder?
It is interesting to note that Mambi grew up with female Asante and male Sekondi at Twycross before moving to Paignton. This was not a proper social group- just three young handraised animals together. But Sekondi (also handraised) who was in rather poor health for several years when young, matured into a breeder, while the much more physically virile Mambi seems to be having difficulty.
This is a question which has puzzled many people for a long time. It will be interesting to see the results of the tests on Mambi - and it is quite possible that he will turn out to be fertile, with the problem lying elsewhere.
Don't forget that his father, Mamfe, was hand-raised. Perhaps Assumbo, Mamfe's half-brother and companion, could have been fertile too at one time - or did Twycross know something when they kept Mamfe and sent Assumbo away?
I take Pertinax's point about the limited number of male lines available in Europe. This is where Howletts/Port Lympne bred males could be valuable as they have, in most cases, few relatives in other zoos; for example Djala has several sons at Port Lympne who will be maturing in the next year or two and they could be useful - although I must admit that transfers of males from these collections have not been very lucky in the past. I hope the Aspinall Trust will take a constructive attitude.
Alan
Don't forget that his father, Mamfe, was hand-raised. Perhaps Assumbo, Mamfe's half-brother and companion, could have been fertile too at one time - or did Twycross know something when they kept Mamfe and sent Assumbo away?
I take Pertinax's point about the limited number of male lines available in Europe. This is where Howletts/Port Lympne bred males could be valuable as they have, in most cases, few relatives in other zoos; for example Djala has several sons at Port Lympne who will be maturing in the next year or two and they could be useful - although I must admit that transfers of males from these collections have not been very lucky in the past. I hope the Aspinall Trust will take a constructive attitude.
Alan
Hi gentlelemur,
I am more optimistic now than I ever was before that at least some of the surplus maturing socially adjusted male gorillas may enter the EEP breeding programme. The re-wilding programme just does not require that many males for the project anyways? With a number of collections not breeding the EEP needs to expand its founder base beyond the lines mentioned by Yassa-Pertinax in the mid-term.
K.B.
I am more optimistic now than I ever was before that at least some of the surplus maturing socially adjusted male gorillas may enter the EEP breeding programme. The re-wilding programme just does not require that many males for the project anyways? With a number of collections not breeding the EEP needs to expand its founder base beyond the lines mentioned by Yassa-Pertinax in the mid-term.
K.B.
Certainly not. No one knows why he is not breeding - but it`s a fact that despite living with young, healthy females since a number of years, no pregnancy ever occured. Maybe he, who has been grown up onthe fantastic large gorilla island in Apenheul is too stressed in Saarbrücken`s mini cage.
1. I think Twycross let Assumbo go because Mamfe showed more prospect as a breeder. But even Mamfe, though he did breed sporadically, was still very humanised and dominated by one or more of the females. Even as a mature silverback he would come over to the glass and suck his thumb and stimulate himself whenever he saw familiar people. Assumbo was never really given a good chance with suitable females to prove if he was any good or not.
2. Its true that while most of the Howletts/Pl stock are very well represented within their collections, few have entered the main EEP population. A few that have so far are;
TamTam(Bitam x Juju) to St Martin la Pleine- breeder
Kishum (Kijo x Shumba) Bandi & Tamiella(dead) " " " all breeders.
Kibabu (Kisoro x Baby Doll to Apenheul/Taronga Park breeder.
Mumbah(wildcaught) to Columbus USA. never bred.
Boulas(Bitam x Mouila) to Belfast. never bred.
Kaja( Kisoro x Juju) to Chessington (female) breeder.
Kishka(Kisoro x Shamba) to Jersey. has bred in past.
Considering the huge number they have bred, its not very many.
Pesco should be a sure-fire breeder. Are they sure it is his fault? If there is a lot of stress the females may just not be conceiving or- with only two- there may be other individual problems. Is it a fair test of the male? That is what I wonder about Mambi's situation at Valencia, with only the one potential breeding female.
As you know the reintroduction projects have had various problems with 'tame' males that have been released. I doubt whether any animals from Howletts/Pl older than say, 2 years would ever be used for this scheme.
Djala's two sons that Gentle Lemur mentioned are perfect candidates for heading new zoo groups elsewhere as, unlike many of the other PL surplus males, both were mother-raised and as 'blackbacks' aged nearly 10 are still living in their natal group, as is 'Kesho' in the small group at Dublin. This is far superior for the social wellbeing of males, in my opinion, than being removed earlier to join a male group.
I suppose here it could be exhibit related stress that prevents either females from conceiving or the male from mating successfully. Does he mate the females at all?
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