Lowland gorillas in Europe 2012

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Yassa said:
His chance may not be zero, but not THAT much more. I want it to work too, but it won`t. His genes may be good, but they are of no use since he has never seen an adult female in his life (handraised and then put in an all-male-group). Ivo doesn`t breed, Mambie doesn`t breed, Awali didin`t breed, Jitu didn`t breed, Boulas didn`t breed. And these are just the current examples...
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Ivo does mate with his females, he just doesn't get any offspring :-/
 
Kumbuka siring any offspring is most unlikely. The London group requires a proven silverback, not a test case to be or not to be with a history to him.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
Kumbuka siring any offspring is most unlikely. The London group requires a proven silverback, not a test case to be or not to be with a history to him.
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London needs a future likely breeding male. London is not the institute to keep trying to breed.
It is true Kumbuka is genetically interesting. Maybe one should give him a chance. But a chance that could turn out to be the highest reacheable potential. The EEP should arrange some institutions to run in the forefront to do so. Aspinall could create a try-out ground for these interesting but unsure future silverbacks.
 
If Kumbuka fails to reproduce at Regents Park, it's not the end of the world. If he does, so much the better. The potential problem is that another failure would not look too good for the ZSL - but it seems that the ZSL and the studbook keeper agree that it's a sensible options in the circumstances.
Pertinax reply;

I am tending to come around to that line of thinking too. I think they think(if you get my drift) that despite his lack of credentials,it is worth a try. The problem though will be more if it fails, what happens to him then? Does he stay, or be replaced yet again, and where would he go then? Maybe that will be sorted out later but in the meantime, for him at least, its certainly better than where he is now and he is getting his chance to show what he can(or not) do.

I was at Howletts last week and looking at Djanghou's very successful group(all of them born at the parks) and several infants. He was handraised too, and spent time in a male group also- though admitedly he was introduced to females at the earlier age of age 9 - but handraising does not seem to have affected his breeding ability at all.

If it fails with Kumbuka I'll have to remember not to say 'I knew this would happen' though.;) As you said, if he turns out to be no good people will be saying' what did they expect?'.

(Sorry Alan, up to my old trick of mistakenly editing a post instead of quoting- pressed wrong button...:o)
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gentle lemur said:
If Kumbuka fails to reproduce at Regents Park, it's not the end of the world.
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I'd say the main thing from Kumbuka's point of view is that a move to London is a move to a social situation. If it doesn't go ahead he could be kept alone for many more months. A year has passed since we were all ready to wave him off to Cabarceno before that fell through.
 
Pertinax said:
I think Awali is the closest parallel out of all of these regarding background, and he certainly didn't work out at Barcelona.:(

I think all of us want this to succeed but have our doubts in varying degrees.;) Of course Kumbuka being a fine-looking male, he will make an excellent display at ZSL but that's not really the main point of him going there. But as GL says, he is already in the UK and his departure will ease the situation at Paignton and my guess is ZSL/EEP's attitude is- 'its worth a try'. Still doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me though.:confused:
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IMHO, the wisest choice for London would be a switch to Bonobos...:(
 
Yassa said:
Yea, but no one knows if he "really" mates them, if you know what I mean.
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yes, some handraised males do 'go through the motions' of mating possibly without proper penetration etc- I think Mambie at Valencia could be in that category too.
 
Pertinax said:
yes, some handraised males do 'go through the motions' of mating possibly without proper penetration etc- I think Mambie at Valencia could be in that category too.
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Given the recent history of gorillas (and having to quickly look for another silverback several times) at London ZSL for me is the reason to rebuke on a Kumbuka loan in there. I would rather favor say one of the younger Howletts/Port Lympne blackback or silverback males to take over the reigns and establish some rules around the place! ;)

I would rather wish him to go to a newly assembled troupe/group to try him out as a potential breeding partner (not in an already established group like London ZSL).

On another note: in the wild all male gorilla groups do not exist, it is just a management strategy adopted in captivity for all good purposes to manage any "surplus" males.
 
I think the accommodation at ZSL is OK for a small group of gorillas - but the outdoor enclosure would need much more climbing space for bonobos and the on-show indoor space is just too small for such active animals.

Alan
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
I would rather favor say one of the younger Howletts/Port Lympne blackback or silverback males to take over the reigns and establish some rules around the place! ;)
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Blackback males shouldn't be used to take over breeding groups (though it is still done sometimes:(- ) as they aren't mature enough to dominate the females easily and often end up being aggressive as they struggle to overcome the females' unwillingness to accept them.

But yes, a mother-reared Silverback would be the ideal choice and there are still a couple of those living at Port Lympne(Kush & Djimu) in what's left of the oldest male group and there is also the upcoming young silverback 'Bitono' (11 years) in the old 'Kijo group' at Howletts.

However Kumbuka may genetically be more important than any of these. I am just now extremely curious to see whether his imminent transfer to ZSL will result in success or failure.
 
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Kifaru Bwana said:
On another note: in the wild all male gorilla groups do not exist, it is just a management strategy adopted in captivity for all good purposes to manage any "surplus" males.
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Someone should tell the Zoos that...;) In at least some places they slant the information during talks to the public etc to imply that male groups are a natural way of gorilla life which, as you said, they aren't.
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
I would rather wish him to go to a newly assembled troupe/group to try him out as a potential breeding partner (not in an already established group like London ZSL).
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That seems like a recipe for chaos to me. It is possible that Kumbuka will be too aggressive with the females, initially at least. So I think that a group of experienced females who can back each other up will be a much safer bet.
Incidentally I saw Kumbuka at Paignton today. He looks splendid, but he doesn't quite have the full silverback gravitas yet. I think the timing of this move may be just right for him.

Alan
 
According to another article, she did from infection caused by a ruptured appendix. The abort was probably a result of the infection and not the other way around.
Very sad..
 
Yassa said:
According to another article, she did from infection caused by a ruptured appendix. The abort was probably a result of the infection and not the other way around.
Very sad..
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That's Google translate for you... :p Thanks for correction
 
gentle lemur said:
That seems like a recipe for chaos to me. It is possible that Kumbuka will be too aggressive with the females, initially at least. So I think that a group of experienced females who can back each other up will be a much safer bet.
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Agree entirely! If he is to be introduced to females, the current London group is entirely suitable, and the right size too, not too many,not too few.

By my reckoning if he can father babies even with only one female(most likely it would be with Mjuku) he would probably be allowed to stay there longerterm. The question remains, will he?;)
 
gentle lemur said:
Incidentally I saw Kumbuka at Paignton today. He looks splendid, but he doesn't quite have the full silverback gravitas yet. I think the timing of this move may be just right for him.
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I didn't see him the other week:( but have a feeling his 'playful' behaviour may be related to his isolated situation and how he relates to people etc. At(nearly) 15 he is fully mature and because of that IMO this is the optimum age to add a silverback to a group, rather than younger, though obviously its not always possible to follow that pattern exactly.
 
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