Lowland gorillas in Europe 2012

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Thanks, I was not aware of what you said in the first paragraph.

So all-male groups are not natural, but solitary silverbacks definitely are. Regarding the integration of young zoo males into a family in order to give them the necessary education to lead their own family and to breed, it means that not putting them into bachelor groups just delays the problem but does not solve it. Even if they get the chance to learn all the social skills, just a fraction will have a family of their own later on while most of them will end up either kept solitary or, depending on the available space, in an all-male group anyway.

I think though I remember having read that the demand of potentially breeding males is bigger than their number available, so given this is the case their integration/education makes sense. But otherwise it seems the result for male foster childs will be the same, regardless the efforts.

If this is true - and please let me know if I'm wrong - the question remaining is: Do we want adult males to live solitary (natural) or in an all-male group (unnatural), and can zoos provide enough space for the first option? Personally (from a human point of view) I think it's sad to see silverbacks like Polo (Mysore, India) or Idi Amin (Belo Horizonte, Brazil) living on their own for many years, but then again I can't say if it's worse than the permant rivalry and stress (Sosto, Hungary) in a male only group.
 
Willard said:
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Although AFAIK they have been less studied, I doubt social behavior of lowland gorillas essentially differs from the mountain gorillas'.
Researchers studying wild Lowland Gorillas report they have never seen males together in a group and that non-group males move about singly and avoid contact with others(I cannot quote a source for that I'm afraid) I think some may also 'trail' breeding groups and live on the periphery(edge) which Diane Fossey decribed for her mountain gorilla study('peripheral males')

this has happened recently in Sosto Zoo, Hungary. Bubu and Djumbah have been fighting for dominance for some time now, resulting in mutual injuries. After their latest fight that caused a severe wound on Djumbah's neck the zoo decided to separate the two silverbacks, in both their indoor and outdoor enclosures.
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One again, the ideal 'model' of males living together has failed and these two have not even been there very long. When this happens it is next to impossible to ever get them back together. They are now likely to remain solitary for life unless breeding places become available.

Also when a group of males which have previously lived harmoniously(or fairly) before, are moved, that can stimulate fighting too- it may happen if the group of adult Port Lympne males are moved to Rhenen Zoo. Even though those males are still together, there is even now occassional fighting as you can see from fresh cuts on them.
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Yassa said:
It`s possible that all-male-groups form when the females all die or leave, but it`s rare, and these groups won`t last long as the mature males will leave. Just young males will stay with the leader (usually their father) until they`re adult.
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I think that was exactly the case with the one 'male group' recorded by Dian Fossey. Originally there was an old female too, possibly the last female of a group which was disintegrating and when she died the males temporarily stayed together- its more than likely they had a familial relationship to each other anyway. Then they split into pairs and later I think became either solitary or formed new groups with females.
 
Willard said:
If this is true - and please let me know if I'm wrong - the question remaining is: Do we want adult males to live solitary (natural) or in an all-male group (unnatural), and can zoos provide enough space for the first option? Personally (from a human point of view) I think it's sad to see silverbacks like Polo (Mysore, India) or Idi Amin (Belo Horizonte, Brazil) living on their own for many years, but then again I can't say if it's worse than the permant rivalry and stress (Sosto, Hungary) in a male only group.
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Very difficult question. Animals like Polo and Idi have never been in male groups so their circumstances are a bit different. Polo went from Dublin as a surplus animal(non-breeder)- again this is how third world zoos sometimes get their Apes (throwouts from Europe). Idi was a 'survivor' but now has two females from Howletts.

In many situations I think the animals largely dictate themselves how they will live. If they will live together, okay, but if they fight, they have to be seperated. In the US, there are lots of zoos housing one, two or three adult males, some together, some alone, in addition to a breeding group. The concept of bachelor groups over there seems to have been tried in the past and largely abandoned in many places.
 
Pertinax said:
Once again, the ideal 'model' of males living together has failed [...] Also when a group of males which have previously lived harmoniously(or fairly) before, are moved, that can stimulate fighting too- it may happen if the group of adult Port Lympne males are moved to Rhenen Zoo.
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I understand. :) As all-male groups are not an option, all "surplus" males have to live solitary, right? Polo is a proof of that, as even if he were not sent to a third world zoo he still had no chance of having his own family, as I guess his genes did not have top priority. So zoos should (must) provide a place for those silverbacks in addition to their breeding groups, thus copying nature as best as possible. Is this the correct recap of your point of view?
 
Willard said:
As all-male groups are not an option, all "surplus" males have to live solitary, right? Polo is a proof of that, as even if he were not sent to a third world zoo he still had no chance of having his own family, as I guess his genes did not have top priority.
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Its a very difficult situation, coloured at least partly by peoples'(zoo visitors) perception of not liking to see 'unhappy' single males-which is why I think bachelor groups were started up. Some of them do work longterm, while others don't, or only partially. i.e. some males have to be seperated out to live alone.

Polo was a non-mater (or infertile), that's why he ended up being shipped off to India.

I think the main harm of male-only groups is where young males that may later be needed for breeding, grow up never having had proper socialisation with females- its more difficult for them to later adjust. The whole thing about spare males is a very tricky problem though.:(
 
Not sure whether this has been brought up before - female Enea from Zurich has moved to Basel.
 
Thanks for the information. Interesting as 'Enea's paternal grandfather was 'Jambo' who was born at Basel. But their current male 'Kisoro' is not related to the original Basel line, so unrelated to her.
 
surrogate gorilla mothers

As a postscript to the handraising / dysfunctional males debate, here is some info from Columbus Zoo on surrogate gorilla mothers - I think it's not being done or tried very often, but if it works it's much better than putting "orphans" into a nursery like Stuttgart. :D
IMG_4577 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (right click on image and chose "original size")
 
Columbus have always been at the forefront of this idea, they may even have invented it. The 'world's first' zooborn, 'Colo' has turned out to be very good at this.

In Europe I can't really think of any examples where this has been tried except possibly recently at Stuttgart itself? There are one or two places where a (related) baby has been reintroduced successfully to its own group after a period of handraising e.g. Chessington & Kolmarden to name two.
 
What about La Vallee des Singes? Didn't they raised two females after a short period of handraising? Or happened that with the pygmeechimps?
 
john said:
What about La Vallee des Singes? Didn't they raised two females after a short period of handraising? Or happened that with the pygmeechimps?
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I have notes referring to two female offspring of the female 'Gaja' at Vallee de Singes which say they were 'hand/mother-raised' so possibly they were given back to her after initial handraising?

I think Columbus have successfully surrogated completely unrelated babies from other Zoos too, I have not heard of that in Europe apart from the current Stuttgart case.
 
Pertinax said:
Its a very difficult situation, coloured at least partly by peoples'(zoo visitors) perception of not liking to see 'unhappy' single males
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This suggests zoo visitors are wrong but it is very different keeping a male alone in a restricted captive environment to the situation of a lone wild male who has much more to occupy his time and energy and maybe has hope (possibly unfounded) of one day being part of a group. The more I hear about gorillas in zoos the more depressing I find it, for every lovely Bristol-type successful group there appears to occur a lot of misfits.
 
OrangePerson said:
This suggests zoo visitors are wrong but it is very different keeping a male alone in a restricted captive environment to the situation of a lone wild male who has much more to occupy his time and energy and maybe has hope (possibly unfounded) of one day being part of a group. The more I hear about gorillas in zoos the more depressing I find it, for every lovely Bristol-type successful group there appears to occur a lot of misfits.
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You've hit the/a nail on the head with that comment. There is a huge difference between single males in the wild living normal fulfilled lives during their 'solitary' phase, and, if they have the skill/ability to acquire a group, maybe going on to be group leaders in time, and enforced solitary confinement in males in captivity.

Though I'm also not convinced groups of males- at least adult ones, are really much happier in that situation(with enforced company of other males) either though its become necessary to use this way of housing and it does appear to work in many instances(but not in others where they have to be seperated).

There are something like between forty and fifty adult and subadult males living outside of male/female groups in Europe, and probably a similar number in the US. Many of them will never join breeding groups either- there just aren't enough places available. Males that are chosen to go into breeding groups are the lucky few indeed. But the ones I feel most sorry for are the breeding Silverbacks which are then later removed(for genetic reasons) from breeding groups and then put in bachelor groups.:(

Bristol do have an excellent and successful social group now, but for decades before this their Gorilla management and set-ups left a great deal to be desired too.
 
chessington birth.

Female Asili at Chessington has given birth to her third baby. Sex unknown at present. Father is Damisi. Asili was taken off contraception around February last year to allow her to breed again and gain more family representation in the group, as her halfsister Shani has two daughters and a grandson in the group, whereas Asili had none, since her oldest offspring female Mjuku was sent to London and her younger daughter Kumili was placed in the adjacent group.
 
Pertinax said:
Female Asili at Chessington has given birth to her third baby...
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After I was notified of the birth of Asili's baby I have updated my Chessington gorilla family tree, using some very helpful information from Pertinax and Jordan-Jaguar97 - thank you! I've also corrected a major error: In the previous version I had mixed up the two Kumba's which must have been quite confusing for anyone having a closer look at the tree. :confused: Concerning the breeding group the layout is still unsatisfying, so I'm going to upload a tree for Damisi's group soon. ;)
The current tree: Gorilla Family - Chessington | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
 
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