Lowland Gorillas in Europe 2014

[Pertinax]

The funny thing is that studbookkeepers are often accused to manage the population from their desk and from behind a computer, but if they do not do so and choose that social competences, individual needs, logistics or character are more important than genetics, they are accused of bad management!

I would always choose the former method over the latter. Obviously some thought needs to be given to temperament, background, compatability etc also, but I rarely have any gripe with decisions made by studbook keepers. I know what a difficult juggling act they have, and with more than a little 'zoo politics' to deal with too. I usually have all respect for their work. Just occassionally a bad decision seems to be made but not often.

 

[persimon]

I guess it also depends on what you call a bad decision, and who judges de decision.
I do not know all the details of the decisions in the past years, but with a species like the gorilla, that is mentally not so easy, and where the genetics seem to be extremely good with many founders, the social/mental, .... reasons for a transfer decision may allow not to be based always on genetics.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Armchair logic is easy, the hard work IS managing a studbook, a conservation breeding program population, the participant zoos and the politics that go with it. Put on top the extra time they have to put in and the afterhours ..., it is an extreme time investment and in zoos staff time is quite often already over-stretched. So, kudos to all of them! Hence, like Pertinax I have the utmost respect for zoo staff members managing an EEP, ESB or another format of a studbook and conservation breeding population.

 

[Jabiru96]

I did not mean to disrespect or downgrade any zoos/studbook keepers/curators at all with my comment. I was just reflecting on the high number of related individuals being grouped (or trooped if you will) together and being bred in Europe compared to America. Not to mention the fact that in Europe males are often integrated into a group at a very young age.

 

[Pertinax]

I did not mean to disrespect or downgrade any zoos/studbook keepers/curators at all with my comment. I was just reflecting on the high number of related individuals being grouped (or trooped if you will) together and being bred in Europe compared to America. Not to mention the fact that in Europe males are often integrated into a group at a very young age.

I never thought you were inferring that. I don't think you will find there are that many related individuals being deliberately paired together in Europe- just a few isolated examples.

Males being expected to take over a group before they are fully mature is a bad idea. It can create a lot of problems- not least the females may not accept/respect him and that may create more trouble/unrest in a group. Again, I think its accepted as not normal practice but occassionally situations arise where it does happen. E.g. Koln are planning to use the existing blackback in their group as their next silverback, following his father's recent death.

 

[Pertinax]

the hard work IS managing a studbook, a conservation breeding program population, the participant zoos and the politics that go with it.

I think that's an important factor that often goes un-noticed. I know of several examples, in this case Gorillas of course, where studbook recommendations for an animal's move have been strongly resisted by a zoo unwilling to participate (particularly when it means parting with an animal). If the SB then manages to accomplish such a move it sometimes requires clever handling of the situation worthy of a Politician!. This must apply to all other species too.

 

[persimon]

I was just reflecting on the high number of related individuals being grouped (or trooped if you will) together and being bred in Europe compared to America.

I guess thatthis means that you have compared the inbreeding coefficients between both populations? How much is the difference? How many more inbred gorillas have been born in Europe in the past 10 years, compared to the US?

 

[Willard]

EEP inbreeding

I guess thatthis means that you have compared the inbreeding coefficients between both populations? How much is the difference? How many more inbred gorillas have been born in Europe in the past 10 years, compared to the US?

When doing research for my genealogical charts I did notice cases of inbreeding a couple of times, but it wasn't an outrageous number. Not a solid scientific argument, I know, just saying off the top of my head.

 

[Willard]

Transfer

Viringika f. was moved from Leipzig to Lympne on December 17. Reason: Too dominant behaviour, causing problems for another female and her raising her offspring. Source: Zoo Leipzig: Gorillaweibchen Virinigika hat den Zoo verlassen

 

[Pertinax]

If she has gone to Port Lympne, she must be joining the large Kouillou group there. Leipzig will get one in return I think?

 

[Pertinax]

EEP Inbreeding cases.

When doing research for my genealogical charts I did notice cases of inbreeding a couple of times, but it wasn't an outrageous number.

Here are the ones that I know of and the relationship of the parents; (Note the current location given is in some cases not where the animal was born/bred.

f Chuma. Givskud. Parents are half-siblings.
m. Akiki. Amneville. Father is also grandfather.
f. N'Tami. St Martin. Parents(both born Howletts) are distantly related.
f.Uzuri and f. Janula(sisters). Duisburg. Parents are cousins.
f. Grace. Wuppertal. Parents are half siblings.
f. Aya. Rotterdam.Parents are half-siblings.
m. Viatu. Frankfurt. Father is also grandfather.
? new baby London. Parents distantly related (on both sides).





{Note from mods - this thread continues here: Lowland Gorillas in Europe 2015}