Even for avid pro-zoo advocates, 100+ failed AI attempts on a single animal is a little hard to defend. Just sayin'.....
Major news article on elephants in zoos
- Thread starter DavidBrown
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Even for avid pro-zoo advocates, 100+ failed AI attempts on a single animal is a little hard to defend. Just sayin'.....
jbnbsn99
Well-Known Member
True enough. There have been some failures.
No, we won't. You have to understand the process by which a "news" story is created. For a news story (as opposed to features, which the Seattle Times articles are) it's almost always prompted by either a press conference, photo op or press release. Quotes and images from these PR events becomes the basic backbone of the story, which is then fleshed out with an opposing quote from the supposed "other side" to provide "balance". It's terrible journalism but it's what both a superficial understanding of journalistic ethics and the devastated media business model demand.
Usually whoever creates the initial PR content gets to control the framing of the story. This could be the zoo in question or one of the animal rights groups. About the best you could hope for would be to carve out a role as the third species of media commenter: The Expert Pundit. This would require you to be willing to comment on anything and everything even tangentially zoo related. You can have a bias one way or the other, but you have to have a useful title - whether it's "former zoo director", "animal welfare advocate" or even "Director of the Zoos Are Great Foundation" - that gives the journalist an excuse to whack your quote in their piece. The pundits don't drive the story though, they simply provide filler on demand.
The Oakland Zoo works with Cynthia Moss to raise sustained funding for wild elephant research and conservation. They work with PAWS on elephant welfare issues. They have an active public elephant education outreach program, not just the superficial happy talk that too often emanates from zoo elephant press releases. I think that doing this kind of work is the only way to prove that having elephants in zoos has social good.
I think that the zoo world has to be honest and admit that a lot of bad elephant management has happened (e.g., the 100+ AI attempts on the individual ele, bullhooks, bad exhibits that lead to horrible elephant foot problems, etc.). In order for the good part of the story to be meaningful (i.e., elephant exhibits and care standards now fix the sins of the past), you have to put it in a historical context.
I think that the zoo world has to be honest and admit that a lot of bad elephant management has happened (e.g., the 100+ AI attempts on the individual ele, bullhooks, bad exhibits that lead to horrible elephant foot problems, etc.)..[/QUOTE]
I cannot disagree that there has been some poor elephant management, but in the history of it show me the examples of the outstanding. It has been a learning curve as with most forms of animal management. Obviously the curve isn't as sharp for some than others.
Regarding the ankus, it is a tool that along with many used to guide and control animals, can be used incorrectly. You have to learn to play the violin and that can cause some earache if not used properly. I've seen the incorrect use of targets, botched introductions, hydralic door injuries does that qualify as harm if it is only mental suffering that is delivered. Horses are expected to wear bits each time they race and dogs wear collars that are jerked around by the untrained, where is their platform, don't see it and it won't change. I appreciate that change for elephants couldn't come soon enough but there are some valuable features of their historic and current management that add to their welfare. The same old song being played.
I cannot disagree that there has been some poor elephant management, but in the history of it show me the examples of the outstanding. It has been a learning curve as with most forms of animal management. Obviously the curve isn't as sharp for some than others.
Regarding the ankus, it is a tool that along with many used to guide and control animals, can be used incorrectly. You have to learn to play the violin and that can cause some earache if not used properly. I've seen the incorrect use of targets, botched introductions, hydralic door injuries does that qualify as harm if it is only mental suffering that is delivered. Horses are expected to wear bits each time they race and dogs wear collars that are jerked around by the untrained, where is their platform, don't see it and it won't change. I appreciate that change for elephants couldn't come soon enough but there are some valuable features of their historic and current management that add to their welfare. The same old song being played.
Several zoos (most?) seem to now have evolved protected contact elephant care and exhibits that fix the problems that most reasonable people would call "bad" (e.g., beating animals with things, keeping them chained for long periods of time, etc.). "Outstanding" I guess would be a combination of enlightened animal management practices and decent exhibits. There are fortunately now many examples in the U.S.: Oakland, Disney's Animal Kingdom, San Diego, Smithsonian National, and Los Angeles are ones that I have seen. With the new AZA elephant care standards hopefully soon all zoo elephant exhibits will live up to these standards. I cannot speak to the rest of the world, but hopefully there are similar movements for higher quality elephant care and exhibits.
I visited Oakland and Disney and sure Disney has some money but their management isn't anything that blows me away. I know they have used FC for some calves so what is it PC or FC?. Elephants still live in restricted space and some may even be confined to back of house which is pretty small for elephants. I agree beating an animal to perform is a disgrace and in this part of the world elephants haven't been chained for nearly 20 years, circus included. Chaining is a useful tool in managing elephants even PC elephants. Unfortunately there are a whole host of poor management practices inside your etc. If you were to read Fowler and Mikotas' Elephants biology, surgery and medicine, you will learn of all the things that need to be addressed with the daily care of elephants and they are not all answered by PC. I know this isn't a PC thread but you have brought it to light and I disagree with the idea that it is the salvation for all elephants for now and forever. It is a useful practice when required but not necessary for all elephants. As usual just have to agree to disagree.No worries.
You kind of have to agree to disagree considering that the AZA has mandated all facilities make the switch to PC. Disney is PC but does enter with calves as the majority of facilities do when an animal is born; to ensure it is doing well.
100+ AIs doesn't sound possible to me. As elephants only cycle every few months and they have been attempting for less than ten.... every four months for ten years does not amount to 100. I want to know where the author got his information. probably a reputable source such as 'Friends of the WPZ elephants" lol
The African elephant population is actually reaching self sustaining levels and the ratio of females born vs males is increasing. The Asian elephant population has the potential for long term survival and sustainability with the mutual exchange for both species with zoos in Europe ( which is currently sustainable for Asians but far from it for Africans).
I have seen photographs of young elephants up to and over a year being trained in FC. I cannot say this is current practice but it has been so there has been a conflict as it seems it is ok to use FC when it suits but not for the net welfare of the elephants. I also understand that for certain reults to be achieved to a better standard in PC, alot of elephants have been trained in FC.
Also was it the AZA members that hold elephants decide on the 2014 mandate? and as I think it would have been, decided by policy makers that have looked at elephants but never worked with them. The only zoo director that I know that has worked elephants in the past 30 years was Chuck Doyle from Rosamond Gifford zoo and I'm sure he's glad he's retired now. Anyway feel sorry that a huge chunk of experience is going to be lost in the USA. Finally, I don't agree.
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Michael J. Berens, is on a roll with all of these Elephant articles. I figured due to this thread, this article was appropriate.
This article is disturbing. Are Oregon Zoo officials really this shady? They posted something on Facebook about it and the backlash is flowing like the Mississippi.
Portland's baby elephant belongs to traveling show | Local News | The Seattle Times
This article is disturbing. Are Oregon Zoo officials really this shady? They posted something on Facebook about it and the backlash is flowing like the Mississippi.
Portland's baby elephant belongs to traveling show | Local News | The Seattle Times
How is this shady? The Oregon Zoo and Have Trunk Will Travel have a breeding loan arrangement with the bull Tusko that is no different from any other breeding loan that you will find with any animal in zoos today.
You need to see Birmingham as well when you get the chance. Sorry I know shameless self promotion but I love our Zoo and I want it to succeed.
It's not shady at all. A zoological institution isn't obligated to reveal conditions of breeding loans with the general public. As a member of the IEF, AZA, and SSP I don't know why anyone feels 'have a trunk will travel' would demand the Oregon zoo hand the new calf over, ripping her from Rose Tu. IF anything like that were to happen I assure you there would be a legal falling out between the two facilities. I believe the Oregon zoo is applying for full ownership at this point. More so to appease the public at HATWT has shown no interest in acquiring the calf.
As has the Portland zoo and Have a trunk will travel
Rose-Tu's baby and the Oregon Zoo: FAQ | Oregon Zoo
Rose-Tu's baby and the Oregon Zoo: FAQ | Oregon Zoo
Elephants aren't my forte. Sorry for coming across as crass. I just did not know and asked a question. Sorry if it offended anyone. I just don't know much about the Elephant situation.
Company that owns baby elephant is no friend of animal rights groups | Local & Regional | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon
Interesting video, though nothing really new in it.
I think that deal between Oregon Zoo and Have Trunk Will Travel is scandalous. The problem is that Have Trunk Will Travel is not a zoo, but a private company whose business depends on travelling and performing with elephants (and use very questionable training methods, to put it mildly). Three of their five female elephants are over 40 and their own breeding efforts have all failed. It seems they have given up now. Do you really think they value Oregon`s Zoo`s mission to build up a matriachal herd more then their own bank account when, in a few years, their own herd has shrunk to just 2?!
My guess is that Oregon will buy themselves out of this problem and offer them so much money for the calf that Have Trunk Will Travel can`t resist. But there is no guarantee Have Trunk Will Travel will agree to this, or to a similar deal when the next calf which is legally their`s is born in Oregon. A zoo which is serious about its mission and the welfare of their elephants should have NEVER taken that risk. There are other solutions - get another zoo-owned bull, or buy Tusko.
This also raises the question what kind of deal Syracuse Zooo has struck with Ringling over Doc.
Woodland`s statement is an empty arrangement of nice words. If they are so dedicated to the survival of the specis and think captive breeding and keeping elephants in zoos is so crucial to this, why the *** is Chai, a proven breeding female, still there, even though the zoo has no breeding bull? Same question goes to the Smithsonian Zoo, by the way.
The problems that the Seattle Times article highlighted are still there, the US population of Asian elephants is declining with a lot more deaths then birth as of 2012. Have a look at the stats here:
Asian Elephants at the Zoological Gardens of the World
Interesting video, though nothing really new in it.
I think that deal between Oregon Zoo and Have Trunk Will Travel is scandalous. The problem is that Have Trunk Will Travel is not a zoo, but a private company whose business depends on travelling and performing with elephants (and use very questionable training methods, to put it mildly). Three of their five female elephants are over 40 and their own breeding efforts have all failed. It seems they have given up now. Do you really think they value Oregon`s Zoo`s mission to build up a matriachal herd more then their own bank account when, in a few years, their own herd has shrunk to just 2?!
My guess is that Oregon will buy themselves out of this problem and offer them so much money for the calf that Have Trunk Will Travel can`t resist. But there is no guarantee Have Trunk Will Travel will agree to this, or to a similar deal when the next calf which is legally their`s is born in Oregon. A zoo which is serious about its mission and the welfare of their elephants should have NEVER taken that risk. There are other solutions - get another zoo-owned bull, or buy Tusko.
This also raises the question what kind of deal Syracuse Zooo has struck with Ringling over Doc.
Woodland`s statement is an empty arrangement of nice words. If they are so dedicated to the survival of the specis and think captive breeding and keeping elephants in zoos is so crucial to this, why the *** is Chai, a proven breeding female, still there, even though the zoo has no breeding bull? Same question goes to the Smithsonian Zoo, by the way.
The problems that the Seattle Times article highlighted are still there, the US population of Asian elephants is declining with a lot more deaths then birth as of 2012. Have a look at the stats here:
Asian Elephants at the Zoological Gardens of the World
Did anyone actually read the breeding loan document posted on the Seattle Times website?
Did you all read in the terms of this agreement that both parties must follow SSP recommendations? When was the last time the SSP recommended the move of a female w/o her young calf?
Yes this is a business transaction. Why keep a proven bull elephant at your ranch who isn't doing anything? Or you can loan him out to a zoo where half of his offspring increases your financial assets. Those offspring can later be bred to further any initial investment made from loaning out that bull, or they can be sold to someone else. When Tusko left the Johnsons, owners of Have Trunk Will Travel, in 2005, we had already bred with their females. The Johnsons also have 1.1 elephants out on loan to the Houston Zoo as well. Their facility is also AZA certified - a type of accreditation afforded to private facilities.
Also, whether you believe that financial transactions of animals between zoos is ethical or not, please do not be naive to believe that it isn't happening. Giraffes are a cash cow for zoos right now. Many antelopes have been the same in the past. I've even heard of okapi going for $500,000. And that's just hoofstock, financial transactions occur for many primates, carnivores, marsupials (Koalas a good example), birds and reptiles.
Did you all read in the terms of this agreement that both parties must follow SSP recommendations? When was the last time the SSP recommended the move of a female w/o her young calf?
Yes this is a business transaction. Why keep a proven bull elephant at your ranch who isn't doing anything? Or you can loan him out to a zoo where half of his offspring increases your financial assets. Those offspring can later be bred to further any initial investment made from loaning out that bull, or they can be sold to someone else. When Tusko left the Johnsons, owners of Have Trunk Will Travel, in 2005, we had already bred with their females. The Johnsons also have 1.1 elephants out on loan to the Houston Zoo as well. Their facility is also AZA certified - a type of accreditation afforded to private facilities.
Also, whether you believe that financial transactions of animals between zoos is ethical or not, please do not be naive to believe that it isn't happening. Giraffes are a cash cow for zoos right now. Many antelopes have been the same in the past. I've even heard of okapi going for $500,000. And that's just hoofstock, financial transactions occur for many primates, carnivores, marsupials (Koalas a good example), birds and reptiles.
Mr. Livet does a great job with his elephant website, but this graph isn't a correct image of US Asian elephant demographics. While there may only be about 140 Asian elephants in US zoos. There are over 250 Asian elephants in the country, including private owners.