Male Elephants
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I do not understand the direction you are coming from and what your intentions are. Are you talking adults, pubescent or calf bulls. If adult, you can not term that separation at all. Or do you want to have more background on captive elephant housing requirements ... in other words your wording does not show either way ...
To be correct on wild elephant ecology: adult bull elephants are solitary by nature ... They do not own a herd ... nay, they are not even accepted into it! A basic stable elephant family unit consists of several related cows and their calves with one dominant female the leading matriarch. Adult bull elephants are only welcomed when 1 or more cows are in oestrus. At all other times they are shunned by their own kind and cows are rather apprehensive of them.
Leptonyx
Well-Known Member
In the case of the Toronto Zoo, our bull Tantor was pretty much separated constantly from our females. From what I was told he was extremely aggressive, and you can still see some of his handywork on the cows today (Iringa has a nice tear in her ear- which I believe was from him). When I asked if they were getting another male after Tantor passed on, I was told *no* because a) we don't need a male on premise for breeding [artificial insemination is now an option], b) we didn't have enough space to comfortably house a male and a herd of cows separately, and c) it was an issue of safety for the cows and for the keepers as well. I agree with jelle there are many, many different ways you could approach this and it can be quite broad, hopefully it's helped though
mjmorg89
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I'm talking about mature adult males. Basically whenever I have seen a male elephant at a zoo it has always been separate from the herd in its own bull pen. I always thought that they were only separated during musth but it seems its more often than that. Is it purely because the herd would not accept a male in with them except for at mating time, as you say jelle, or are there other factors?
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dragon(ele)nerd
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Males usually being quite aggresive on their own, perhaps since their testrone level is extremly high can't remember what it is measured to but testing aggresiveness in animals it said somethin' about 129.8, I'm not sure,
It also depends on the upbring of the animal, so bulls were brought over from elephant camps in asia and they were reared with close human contact, but they run amock.
In zoos, they usually only want contact with the herd when they know a particular female is in heat or that bull as an individual is a very gentle elephant e.g Radza of Emmen.
Relating back to what Jelle said, in the wild and sometimes in captivity the older cows are very defendent on the younger ones, take example Siporex in hannover zoo they tried to use him for breeding several times but once he tried to chase after the younger cows and mount he was pushed away by the older cow.
It really depends on the bull itself,
But in general compared to other animals an adult male elephant is very very aggressive,
It also depends on the upbring of the animal, so bulls were brought over from elephant camps in asia and they were reared with close human contact, but they run amock.
In zoos, they usually only want contact with the herd when they know a particular female is in heat or that bull as an individual is a very gentle elephant e.g Radza of Emmen.
Relating back to what Jelle said, in the wild and sometimes in captivity the older cows are very defendent on the younger ones, take example Siporex in hannover zoo they tried to use him for breeding several times but once he tried to chase after the younger cows and mount he was pushed away by the older cow.
It really depends on the bull itself,
But in general compared to other animals an adult male elephant is very very aggressive,
Hi mjmorg89,
The best Elephant exhibit l have seen has to be Howlettes. They have a policy there. That they have very little interaction with the Elephants.
If an Elephant has a sore foot. It presents it to the keeper for attention. Without being trained to do this!!!
There bull Elephant is with the heard. Yes he probably does have a very good nature. He may also be seperated when he enters musk. The point is most of the time he is with the heard.
I have had several long conversations with the keepers there.
They seem to belive that Elephants in captivity should be housed in family groups. When this is achieved the training of Elephants as many zoos do is not necessary!! As they have all the enrichment they need from there family!!!
This example coming from l belive the most progressive zoo in the world!
I disagree 100% with you on the subject as it is ecologically unsound and goes beyond the biological facts. You will have to read the books by Cynthia Moss et al to have a real clear understanding of elephant behaviour, ecology and group structure and dynamics.
In some respects the Aspinall collections are most progressive (gorilla rei-introduction, the back-to-Africa approach), but where this concerns their elephant management I tend to disagree with their approach. They just have a really easy-going bull even while in musth! Reflective or mirroring their social structure in the wild it is most definitely not!
What I feared is true ... there is a lot of misinformation and personal bias regarding elephants in captivity involved again. So, please do not jump the band-wagon again, let us stay on-topic and stay with the facts ... rather what you think is the best method (there are none save for providing 100 of hectares to elephants alone ... which is both unrealistic and undesirable in a zoo environment with a duty to manage and maintain representative collections of wild animals in stable and genetically sound managed groupings).
mjmorg89
Well-Known Member
So Howletts is a one-off then really? Is it most common in zoos that bulls are kept on their own for most of the time apart from when a female is in heat, so as to reflect natural group behaviour? Jelle do you have the title of that book as there are quite a few by her and it's not clear which is the best, thanks.
There is no general rule how zoos keep bull elephants. Bull elephants are individuals and each keeper has his own opinion about how much time a bull should spend with the female herd when no female is in heat. There are MANY zoos who do the same like Howletts and put the bull with the females often or even every day, regardless if a female is cycling or not. Examples: bull Nicolai and Calvin/Hannover, Mekong/Leipzig, RAdza/Emmen, Tembo and Ankhor/Animal Park Berlin, Limbo/Beauval, Tooth/Rhenen, Alexander/Amersfoort and Antwerp, Bindu/Cologne, Chamundi/Münster, Maxi/Zurich, Jums/Howletts, and probably some more... I`d say there are actually more zoos in Europe which put the bull with the herd on daily basis then zoos which keep the bull seperated all the time. Wild bulls don`t spend all their time with a particular herd, but it works in most zoos without problems.
I've never been to Howletts and NOT seen their African Bull in with the herd. But conversly when Port Lympne kept Asian elephants, I only ever saw the bull Luka on his own. So clearly it depends on individual bulls, not only the Zoo's Policy.
At Chester & Whipsnade the Asian bulls nowadays seem to be seperated for most of the time. On the other hand photos of the large herd at Emmen Zoo always show the impressive bull 'Radza' among the herd.
At Chester & Whipsnade the Asian bulls nowadays seem to be seperated for most of the time. On the other hand photos of the large herd at Emmen Zoo always show the impressive bull 'Radza' among the herd.
You have a good point Pertinax, I`ve just checked Howlett`s webcam and Jums is seperated in one of the sand paddocks. MAybe he`s in musth. When I checked the webcam this summer, I`ve always seen him with the herd.
My understanding is that Chang was often/always (?) with the herd as long as he was in Chester, but Upali is much younger and we`ve speculated a lot here why he is seperated most of the time (dominance issues with some females?). Luka from P.L. is now in Terra Natura Benidorm and from what i`ve heard, he is usually in the very big yard together with rotating groups of females.
My understanding is that Chang was often/always (?) with the herd as long as he was in Chester, but Upali is much younger and we`ve speculated a lot here why he is seperated most of the time (dominance issues with some females?). Luka from P.L. is now in Terra Natura Benidorm and from what i`ve heard, he is usually in the very big yard together with rotating groups of females.
"What I feared is true ... there is a lot of misinformation and personal bias regarding elephants in captivity involved again. So, please do not jump the band-wagon again, let us stay on-topic and stay with the facts ... rather what you think is the best method (there are none save for providing 100 of hectares to elephants alone ... which is both unrealistic and undesirable in a zoo environment with a duty to manage and maintain representative collections of wild animals in stable and genetically sound managed groupings).
[/QUOTE]I do not understand the potential of miscommunication here, nor the reason for scoring points. If you have misinterpreted my comments I am really sorry, but to my mind they were perfectly clear.
Bottomline is: I am just saying that captive elephant management does not correspond with their natural behaviour and ecology in the wild. I really do not understand what is so difficult to comprehend in that? It is stating just a mere fact. To know more is to read books by Cynthia Moss et al to get an angle on this issue. Yet I also wrote it is unrealistic to expect captive habitats to fully reflect their environment (nor do I wish for that for reasons tied to education-conservation and even recreation).
I was at no point saying that what may work in one zoo is no good at all. If we are to strive to good exhibits and methods of managing our captive species including elephants we must convey an image of their natural social structure, behaviour and breeding. That is what anyone in a zoo environment should wish for.
That said, I know it is not 100%, yet I think I am allowed to disagree with you guys and girls on the Aspinall case ... am I not?
Bottomline is: I am just saying that captive elephant management does not correspond with their natural behaviour and ecology in the wild. I really do not understand what is so difficult to comprehend in that? It is stating just a mere fact. To know more is to read books by Cynthia Moss et al to get an angle on this issue. Yet I also wrote it is unrealistic to expect captive habitats to fully reflect their environment (nor do I wish for that for reasons tied to education-conservation and even recreation).
I was at no point saying that what may work in one zoo is no good at all. If we are to strive to good exhibits and methods of managing our captive species including elephants we must convey an image of their natural social structure, behaviour and breeding. That is what anyone in a zoo environment should wish for.
That said, I know it is not 100%, yet I think I am allowed to disagree with you guys and girls on the Aspinall case ... am I not?
Can we now get back on topic!
Examples of zoos keeping their bull more or less permantly with the herd exist: Emmen is an obvious choice (where bull Radza is docile beyond belief). The erstwhile bull in Amsterdam Murugan was another example, allthough his behaviour may have been influenced by the very fact that he was almost hand-raised from birth which later on precluded his breeding to the cows.
Other bulls like Alexander (now at Amersfoort) and Sammy-Timber at Rotterdam are permanently separated from the cows. The cows are taken to the bulls when they are in oestrus. In Amersfoort a strange kind of cohabitation exists to date as a full bull enclosure is not yet available (once this is completed in 2009 Alex will be kept separate again as was the case at Blijdorp and Zoo Antwerpen previously).
I will have to plough through my elephant management manuals and documentation to come up with further data on current bull elephant situations in zoos.
The current situation is still governed in great part by the fact that we are left with several bulls that have lived under sub-optimal conditions for the better part of their reproductive life and hence have adopted this strange kind of cohabitation that exists in some zoos.
What one sees over the last few years is that the management of younger captive-born and pubescent elephant bulls is contrived and puts the older cows under considerable stress. In the wild, this would be the very moment the cows would no longer tolerate the antagonistic and dominating behaviour of these non-reproductive bulls in the 4-15 age classes. It is a management issue which as a short-term stop-gap measure has prompted the species coordinators to come up with bachelor herd situations (which more or less compare favourably with the associations in the wild in these age classes), yet even that is not ideal.
Hence, we still have a long way to go before we have devised the ultimate elephant habitat in captivity... in which we can accomodate different age classes, breeding bulls-cows, pubescent individuals and elderly elephants. It is a challenge which I am prepared to go through (without resorting to sanctuary options in a zoo environment).
Examples of zoos keeping their bull more or less permantly with the herd exist: Emmen is an obvious choice (where bull Radza is docile beyond belief). The erstwhile bull in Amsterdam Murugan was another example, allthough his behaviour may have been influenced by the very fact that he was almost hand-raised from birth which later on precluded his breeding to the cows.
Other bulls like Alexander (now at Amersfoort) and Sammy-Timber at Rotterdam are permanently separated from the cows. The cows are taken to the bulls when they are in oestrus. In Amersfoort a strange kind of cohabitation exists to date as a full bull enclosure is not yet available (once this is completed in 2009 Alex will be kept separate again as was the case at Blijdorp and Zoo Antwerpen previously).
I will have to plough through my elephant management manuals and documentation to come up with further data on current bull elephant situations in zoos.
The current situation is still governed in great part by the fact that we are left with several bulls that have lived under sub-optimal conditions for the better part of their reproductive life and hence have adopted this strange kind of cohabitation that exists in some zoos.
What one sees over the last few years is that the management of younger captive-born and pubescent elephant bulls is contrived and puts the older cows under considerable stress. In the wild, this would be the very moment the cows would no longer tolerate the antagonistic and dominating behaviour of these non-reproductive bulls in the 4-15 age classes. It is a management issue which as a short-term stop-gap measure has prompted the species coordinators to come up with bachelor herd situations (which more or less compare favourably with the associations in the wild in these age classes), yet even that is not ideal.
Hence, we still have a long way to go before we have devised the ultimate elephant habitat in captivity... in which we can accomodate different age classes, breeding bulls-cows, pubescent individuals and elderly elephants. It is a challenge which I am prepared to go through (without resorting to sanctuary options in a zoo environment).
Are you sure he's segregated? There is a very narrow shute leading to the grass paddocks so he could appear seperated while just choosing to be away from the others.
I'm pleased Luka went to Spain- I think he will have a better life there than at any of his several previous homes. I think the Port Lympne elephant accomodation is pretty poor really-a very exposed hillside site and winds straight off the English channel.
Yep, Jums was in in the left sand paddock and the gates between the 2 sand paddocks were definately closed.
Jelle - your information about Alexander is not correct. In Rotterdam, there is the problem that the main paddock is not bull-proof. That`s one reason why Alex could not go out on daily basis with the females. However, i have seen him together with the female herd a number of times without a female being in heat, then all animals were in the bull yards. In Antwerp, Alex was EVERY day with the female herd and that went great, they don`t even have a seperate bull enclosure in the zoo. Amersfoort in contrary has 2 seperate paddocks of approx. the same size, one for the bull and one for the female herd. Since Alex is so great with the females, he was with them all summer and all animals could use both enclosures. Currently, Amersfoort is building a new female barn, not a bull yard - the bull facility incl. bull paddock + bull barn are finished since 2003/2004. However, since the new female barn is build in parts on the exisiting outdoor enclosure, it may be true that at the moment, there is just one paddock useable for the elephants. But again, I know for sure that Alex was with the herd all the time before construction of the female barn started.
Jelle - your information about Alexander is not correct. In Rotterdam, there is the problem that the main paddock is not bull-proof. That`s one reason why Alex could not go out on daily basis with the females. However, i have seen him together with the female herd a number of times without a female being in heat, then all animals were in the bull yards. In Antwerp, Alex was EVERY day with the female herd and that went great, they don`t even have a seperate bull enclosure in the zoo. Amersfoort in contrary has 2 seperate paddocks of approx. the same size, one for the bull and one for the female herd. Since Alex is so great with the females, he was with them all summer and all animals could use both enclosures. Currently, Amersfoort is building a new female barn, not a bull yard - the bull facility incl. bull paddock + bull barn are finished since 2003/2004. However, since the new female barn is build in parts on the exisiting outdoor enclosure, it may be true that at the moment, there is just one paddock useable for the elephants. But again, I know for sure that Alex was with the herd all the time before construction of the female barn started.
Hi Jelle, I am not point scoring. I am talking about the facts that a clear to me.
[/QUOTE]
What I feared is true ... there is a lot of misinformation and personal bias regarding elephants in captivity involved again. So, please do not jump the band-wagon again, let us stay on-topic and stay with the facts[/QUOTE]
If you are suggesting that l jump the band-wagon! I paddle my own canoe Jelle.
We are on topic. It's the facts that seem to be unclear!!
That clinches it then...
I seem to remember that at Whipsnade, the bull Emmet was always in with the females while he was growing- he was smaller than them even until quite recently. After they built the new house and sand yard for him, he seems to live seperately though he has access to a big paddock adjacent to some of the females. Whipsnade with its 'split female' groups is a bit unusual though.
Chester, I remember seeing Chang both with the females and alone. Again,like Emmet, Upali used to be with the group always and seems to have been segregated only since he has matured.
As far as i could tell Amersfoort CAN keep Alex away from the girls if they want to? They do have a seperate pen, allthough they can touch trunks if the gate is closed?
Emmen also is a showcase on how it depends on the individual, since their previous bull Naing Thein was always kept apart from the girls. As far as i understood they wanted to do the same with Radza, but Radza never dared to go down the stairs (wimp) into the bull-stable so they tried to keep him with the girls, who never objected. Now he's always in with them...
Duisburg, Wuppertal, Rotterdam and Beekse Bergen keep their bull apart, while many others don't. I can't really see a pattern, its up to the keepers/zoos/individual bull...
Regarding Amersfoort, yes, it was possible to keep Alex away from the females (at least before they started construction of the new female barn about 1 or 2 weeks ago). But they didn`t because Alex is as friendly and peaceful as Radza in Emmen.
Often the decision if a bull is kept away from the herd or gets daily acess to them has not only to do with the question if the animals come along with each other, but with enclosure design and management questions. I have already mentioned that in Rotterdam, the bull can`t use the big herd enclosure because the moat is not bull-proof. In other zoos like Wuppertal the keepers enter the outdoor enclosure of the females multiple times during the day to do training sessions, cleaning ect. That is obviously not possible if the bull were out with the females and that may be one reason why they prefer to keep him seperated.
I agree with Jelle that the presence of teenage bulls can stress older females - Emmen was an example for that, the old female Annabelle didn`t like Naing Thein and therefore he got his own enclosure. Annabelle however has no problems with big Radza. It is clearly not ideal to aquire a young bull (age class under 15) for breeding when there are older females in the herd. It`s better only to use bulls who are fully mature and dominant, 20+ years old. Just that there is a shortage of big bulls so that many zoos are forced to try it with younger bulls - which often works out very well.
Often the decision if a bull is kept away from the herd or gets daily acess to them has not only to do with the question if the animals come along with each other, but with enclosure design and management questions. I have already mentioned that in Rotterdam, the bull can`t use the big herd enclosure because the moat is not bull-proof. In other zoos like Wuppertal the keepers enter the outdoor enclosure of the females multiple times during the day to do training sessions, cleaning ect. That is obviously not possible if the bull were out with the females and that may be one reason why they prefer to keep him seperated.
I agree with Jelle that the presence of teenage bulls can stress older females - Emmen was an example for that, the old female Annabelle didn`t like Naing Thein and therefore he got his own enclosure. Annabelle however has no problems with big Radza. It is clearly not ideal to aquire a young bull (age class under 15) for breeding when there are older females in the herd. It`s better only to use bulls who are fully mature and dominant, 20+ years old. Just that there is a shortage of big bulls so that many zoos are forced to try it with younger bulls - which often works out very well.