Male Gorilla psychology

Crowthorne said:
Just going to jump in here and back up what everyone else is saying about Kumbuka. I visit London regularly (when possible!), and always seek out some time with the gorillas. When Kumbuka was still new at London, yes he would bang the glass and display, but no more than any other male, newly arrived with a new family and situation, and more than a little put out by the closeness of the public at London. When Alika was born, he was initially very protective, as would be expected with any new dad. Once he settled in, the stand off barriers and camouflage decals added to the glass viewing, and especially once his offspring started to get bigger, he really calmed down and became very chilled. Even the noisy public didn't really seem to bother him any more.

I admit I don't know gorillas as much as some members on here, but I would never have described Kumbuka as aggressive.
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Pretty good encapsulation of the story I think...
 
The Hedgehog said:
Another example of a male Silverback Gorilla who dose not act in the manor that Kumbuka did is Jock the Silverback Gorilla who resides at Bristol Zoo.
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He sure did when he first arrived at London zoo- he was aggressive to other gorillas and used his teeth to good effect, the same at Bristol, if you had seen what he did to Salome's arm when they were first introduced you would think twice about your statement. But even that is just normal gorilla behaviour. He's calm and settled nowadays,but that's what comes with time and age.
 
Pertinax said:
Worth remembering Jock was actually(genuinely) pretty aggressive to other gorillas when he first arrived at London, they had to seperate the two Czech females from him and he could latterly only be kept with Zaire. It was one reason they exchanged males with Bristol where his introduction proved far more tricky than his predecessors Bobby or Klaus, and they had to employ sedatives for him initially. That's a long time in the past and of course as you said, he's much older now and completely settled with his family. With Kumbuka I don't think they experienced the problems they had with the 'younger' Jock when he came to London.
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Now that is very interesting. Admittedly I was only a toddler when Jock was still at the zoo but I always wondered why he ended up being switched with Bobby...!
 
ShonenJake13 said:
Now that is very interesting. Admittedly I was only a toddler when Jock was still at the zoo but I always wondered why he ended up being switched with Bobby...!
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The situation became so bad I can remember even at a ZSL keeper talk it being mentioned they would have to do something. In the event Bristol got the better end of the exchange as Bobby never bred and I think was pretty much Jock's opposite, being bullied by the females!
 
ShonenJake13 said:
He was a young silverback at the time, so I’m not at all surprised. He is so relaxed now, beca:rolleyes:use he’s far older and has no threats to worry about.
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This isn't uncommon either...other reliable and calm silverbacks that head families in Europe nowadays have had similar difficult pasts when being added to groups when they were younger- Youande(Vallee de Singes) Buzandi (Hanover) and Matadi(Antwerp) are just three that spring to mind.
 
Thanks @Pertinax for reminding me of Matadi who now resides Antwerp Zoo. Ironically Matadi was Kumbuka's housemate at Paington Zoo for a while. I forgot about Matadi's aggressive streak. Much like Kesho who formally lived at London Zoo Matadi attacked a defenceless Gorilla. The Gorilla in question was a young female named Kiki who was having an Epileptic Seizure fit when Matadi savagely ran over to her and sunk his teeth right into the flesh on her arm. Unfortunately Kiki who was already disabled gained a second disability at the teeth of her new so called "mate". Fast forward years and Matadi is a true gentlegoril.
 
The Hedgehog said:
Thanks @Pertinax for reminding me of Matadi who now resides Antwerp Zoo. Ironically Matadi was Kumbuka's housemate at Paington Zoo for a while. I forgot about Matadi's aggressive streak. Much like Kesho who formally lived at London Zoo Matadi attacked a defenceless Gorilla. The Gorilla in question was a young female named Kiki who was having an Epileptic Seizure fit when Matadi savagely ran over to her and sunk his teeth right into the flesh on her arm. Unfortunately Kiki who was already disabled gained a second disability at the teeth of her new so called "mate". Fast forward years and Matadi is a true gentlegoril.
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Ironically?

Defenceless gorilla? :confused:
 
The Hedgehog said:
Thanks @Pertinax for reminding me of Matadi who now resides Antwerp Zoo. Ironically Matadi was Kumbuka's housemate at Paington Zoo for a while. I forgot about Matadi's aggressive streak. Much like Kesho who formally lived at London Zoo Matadi attacked a defenceless Gorilla. The Gorilla in question was a young female named Kiki who was having an Epileptic Seizure fit when Matadi savagely ran over to her and sunk his teeth right into the flesh on her arm. Unfortunately Kiki who was already disabled gained a second disability at the teeth of her new so called "mate". Fast forward years and Matadi is a true gentlegoril.
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You seem to have a real fixation with "proving" that individual gorillas are aggressive or savage, despite the advice of multiple members who are better-informed than yourself to leave the matter alone....... :rolleyes:

Please consider taking the advice, before you lose any credibility you may have.
 
The Hedgehog said:
Thanks @Pertinax for reminding me of Matadi who now resides Antwerp Zoo. Ironically Matadi was Kumbuka's housemate at Paington Zoo for a while. I forgot about Matadi's aggressive streak. Much like Kesho who formally lived at London Zoo Matadi attacked a defenceless Gorilla. The Gorilla in question was a young female named Kiki who was having an Epileptic Seizure fit when Matadi savagely ran over to her and sunk his teeth right into the flesh on her arm. Unfortunately Kiki who was already disabled gained a second disability at the teeth of her new so called "mate". Fast forward years and Matadi is a true gentlegoril.
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I think you’re posting these things on purpose at this point, so I’ll keep my response short this time:
If you happened to be an individual that had no idea what a seizure was or looked like and during an introduction with a protective barrier in between a stranger you’ve never met before started convulsing and slamming into said protective barrier with no real motive, you’d be just as frightened. It happened to be the case that Matadi, like all silverbacks, reacted defensively to such an alien mannerism. Matadi is not aggressive either, and the sooner you begin to realise that posting guesses you have about things online as if it’s fact is a bad idea, the better.
 
The Hedgehog said:
Thanks @Pertinax for reminding me of Matadi who now resides Antwerp Zoo. Ironically Matadi was Kumbuka's housemate at Paington Zoo for a while. I forgot about Matadi's aggressive streak. Much like Kesho who formally lived at London Zoo Matadi attacked a defenceless Gorilla. The Gorilla in question was a young female named Kiki who was having an Epileptic Seizure fit when Matadi savagely ran over to her and sunk his teeth right into the flesh on her arm. Unfortunately Kiki who was already disabled gained a second disability at the teeth of her new so called "mate". Fast forward years and Matadi is a true gentlegoril.
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I think what you need to understand is that you are projecting human emotions, intentions and traits onto an animal. It is called anthropomorphism and it is leading you to inaccurate assumptions. You seem to think this was a 'savage' attack and Matadi knew Kiki was 'defenceless'. It sounds more like Matadi didn't understand what a seizure is and reacted out of confusion and possibly fear.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt as I believe you are quite young / immature - but you really need to start considering at least the basic context of the situation, if not the different social, cognitive and behavioural factors in play.
 
Don’t get me wrong @TeaLovingDave @Pertinax @Tuan @Gigit and @ShonenJake13 I like all Gorillas and that includes the now deceased Kumbuka and Matadi. However I was led to believe that Kumbuka was ousted by the Gorilla’s at Paignton Zoo due to his unpredictable and bullying behaviour. I would not be at all surprised if Kumbuka had ADHD or some form of Autism.
 
Zia said:
It sounds more like Matadi didn't understand what a seizure is and reacted out of confusion and possibly fear.
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From what I can gather that was exactly the case. Matadi is completely normal, not overly aggressive and now well settled with his little family in Antwerp.
 
The Hedgehog said:
Don’t get me wrong @TeaLovingDave @Pertinax @Tuan @Gigit and @ShonenJake13 I like all Gorillas and that includes the now deceased Kumbuka and Matadi. However I was led to believe that Kumbuka was ousted by the Gorilla’s at Paignton Zoo due to his unpredictable and bullying behaviour. I would not be at all surprised if Kumbuka had ADHD or some form of Autism.
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Well, social structure is a hard thing to understand, even with humans. Simply put, some animals get along and some dont, like how you get along with some people and some not so much. Nothing to do with aggresiveness or anything, more of a compatibility thing. Not really a mental illness thing, which, well....to be frank I dont know how to respond to...
 
Thai you @Zia for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Seeming Gorillas share 98% of our DNA I thought Matadi may have had some form of understanding of Kiki’s disability. After all a Gorilla named KoKo was able to learn sign language and the context of when to use certain signs.KoKo the gorilla even cried with grief and signed sad when her cat got hit by a car. Going back to a former London Zoo Silverback for a fleeting second, Kesho the gorilla recognised his brother’s from Dublin zoo when they were reunited at Longleat. Kesho even gave them a big hug.
 
The Hedgehog said:
However I was led to believe that Kumbuka was ousted by the Gorilla’s at Paignton Zoo due to his unpredictable and bullying behaviour. I would not be at all surprised if Kumbuka had ADHD or some form of Autism.
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I don't know where you get this from but it is not correct. Kumbuka had already lived on his own for some time before moving to London as the group dynamic of a silverback kept with much younger males meant there was no place for him in it. He was just a normal gorilla male.
 
I think this whole conversation is now worth it’s own thread. Any relevance to news regarding Port Lympne disappeared a loooooonnnng time ago!
 
@Pertinax to me it sounds like Kumbuka should have moved to a breeding family group of Gorillas long before he did. I suppose Kumbuka’s situation is why places like Chessington World Of Adventures have castrated thier juvenile male gorillas M’Bula and M’Wana. From what all you ZooChatters have told me it sounds like Kumbuka came across to me as a aggressive Silverback when actually his natural hormones were on overdrive. Sorry Kumbuka I have appeared to have misread your body language and characteristics.
 
The Hedgehog said:
@Pertinax to me it sounds like Kumbuka should have moved to a breeding family group of Gorillas long before he did. I suppose Kumbuka’s situation is why places like Chessington World Of Adventures have castrated thier juvenile male gorillas M’Bula and M’Wana. From what all you ZooChatters have told me it sounds like Kumbuka came across to me as a aggressive Silverback when actually his natural hormones were on overdrive. Sorry Kumbuka I have appeared to have misread your body language and characteristics.
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I hope someone passes on this message for you and he is understanding that you are sorry for saying he was something he was not....:rolleyes:
 
Gorillas are sensitive creatures and there are considerable variations in their individual characters, but I think it is quite usual for them to be unsettled in new surroundings. I saw Kumbuka at Paignton many times and several times at London also. At Paignton as he developed into silverback he naturally would have challenged Pertinax's dominance eventually, so they were separated to leave Pertinax to 'educate' the younger males and to protect Kumbuka, who was genetically so valuable that he was destined to lead a breeding group. He was highly strung in London, particularly at first, and the design of the enclosure and the behaviour of many London visitors did not help, but he did settle much more as he matured.
I saw Matadi as a youngster at Twycross where he was quite exuberant, but I also saw him after he had been injured by Oumbi (who was introduced as the silverback after Sekondi's death). I think Oumbi must have been nervous in the new situation and maybe Matadi irritated him. At Paignton he was well settled, although younger than the others and was notably independent. His move to Howletts was unfortunate, because he was housed next to Dzanghou's group and Dzanghou reacted by deliberately intimidating him - perfectly natural behaviour behaviour when a smaller unfamiliar male appears next to his territory. Obviously even the gorilla experts at Howletts got things wrong, and they modified both enclosures to visually separate Dzanghou from Sammi (Matadi's replacement). In retrospect I am glad I didn't visit Howletts while Matadi was there. The unfortunate incident with Kiki has been explained already by @ShonenJake13, in retrospect it may well be another husbandry failure. I am glad to say that I did see Matadi which his group at Antwerp last year: he seems very settled and I think that many Antwerp visitors are delighted by the way he sometimes plays with his little daughter Thandie.
 
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