Mammals in all-indoor exhibits?
- Thread starter Toddy
- Start date
Whatever, I signed up to talk about animals not to let some snot ruin a perfectly good time, didn't think it would take me less than two days to figure out who the skunknozzle is on the forum.
I maintain the original question, do indoor exhibits of extreme size offset problems or concerns in anyone's opinion? Some of these habitats have natural sunlight through a greenhouse-type ceiling and are as spacious if not more so than equivalent outdoor habitats at other zoos.
Personally I prefer a combination of indoor/outdoor for every mammal possible, but the indoor rainforests I mentioned were so large that it generally offsets most of the concerns I would have about doing so. I think the biggest mammals I have seen in exclusively indoor habitats are Tapirs and a Pygmy Hippo.
I maintain the original question, do indoor exhibits of extreme size offset problems or concerns in anyone's opinion? Some of these habitats have natural sunlight through a greenhouse-type ceiling and are as spacious if not more so than equivalent outdoor habitats at other zoos.
Personally I prefer a combination of indoor/outdoor for every mammal possible, but the indoor rainforests I mentioned were so large that it generally offsets most of the concerns I would have about doing so. I think the biggest mammals I have seen in exclusively indoor habitats are Tapirs and a Pygmy Hippo.
although the buildings are very large, the size of the actual enclosures for the larger animals are often very small. I think it is the Lied Jungle tapir enclosure that draws most criticism here (please correct me if I have the wrong establishment). Very very tiny. The Bronx's panther enclosure is another that is often criticised.Duckbill said:
nicholas
Well-Known Member
Duckbill, your question about large rainforest indoor habitats is exactly what has been discussed in the last few posts. You might not be familiar with Masoala, being from the US, but it is huge, even compared to Bronx Zoo's Jungle World.
I will choose to repeat myself. I've worked with animals in these large rainforest habitats. The ones who had outdoor access chose to be outside most of the time. In my mind mammals probably have a better life given access to the outside, even hamsters. Can they be kept inside and still have good welfare? Yes, most likely. Is it OK? In my mind, no!
I will choose to repeat myself. I've worked with animals in these large rainforest habitats. The ones who had outdoor access chose to be outside most of the time. In my mind mammals probably have a better life given access to the outside, even hamsters. Can they be kept inside and still have good welfare? Yes, most likely. Is it OK? In my mind, no!
You are correct that I am entirely unfamiliar with Masoala, and i'll have to take time to familiarize myself later.
I would agree with you and Childonias that larger mammals of that size should have plenty of outdoor room to roam but I think that smaller animals can still thrive if, as you said, the exhibit is extensive enough and has amenities such as natural light.
I appreciate the insight.
I would agree with you and Childonias that larger mammals of that size should have plenty of outdoor room to roam but I think that smaller animals can still thrive if, as you said, the exhibit is extensive enough and has amenities such as natural light.
I appreciate the insight.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
"Snot", "skunknozzle(?!?)"? Tz, tz, tz...
Mind your language, @Duckbill; who's condescending whom here? If you just want to "talk about animals", one of the many bunnyhugger forums might be more suitable. If you want to talk about & learn about zoo husbandry etc. - welcome. And if you can't understand a simple thought-provoking impulse as such, well, your bad.
"natural sunlight"? Certainly not when using typical "greenhouse-type ceiling".
One might also add the pygmy hippo and several other enclosures at Lied Jungle to what @Chlidonias mentioned. "Extreme size"? Only in regard to the general size of the buildings, all too often not in regard to the individual exhibit. And I think the same will be said about Gondwanaland in Leipzig...
And why only "large" mammals?
Nice summary, @nicholas.
Mind your language, @Duckbill; who's condescending whom here? If you just want to "talk about animals", one of the many bunnyhugger forums might be more suitable. If you want to talk about & learn about zoo husbandry etc. - welcome. And if you can't understand a simple thought-provoking impulse as such, well, your bad."natural sunlight"? Certainly not when using typical "greenhouse-type ceiling".
One might also add the pygmy hippo and several other enclosures at Lied Jungle to what @Chlidonias mentioned. "Extreme size"? Only in regard to the general size of the buildings, all too often not in regard to the individual exhibit. And I think the same will be said about Gondwanaland in Leipzig...
And why only "large" mammals?
Nice summary, @nicholas.
Mammals in all-indoor exhibits
It might be fair to suggest that the bigger the animal, the harder it is to provide all its needs in an indoor setting. Smaller creatures tend to be more vulnerable to weather conditions, predation and indeed [to consider the zoo-going public's perspective] harder to see, if outside in naturalistic enclosures.
It might be fair to suggest that the bigger the animal, the harder it is to provide all its needs in an indoor setting. Smaller creatures tend to be more vulnerable to weather conditions, predation and indeed [to consider the zoo-going public's perspective] harder to see, if outside in naturalistic enclosures.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Sorry @FBBird, but that last statement of yours is too generalising.
Keep on keeping on Monkey King, do whatever you want, could care less, nicholas had a good response to my question without being a jerk, you were apparently unable.
FBBird said:
It is easy to make that suggestion because obviously larger animals need more room to roam and it's less expensive to provide said room in a outdoor habitat but I see what nicholas is saying about animals preferring to be outside given an option for each, if only I were a student again to have the opportunity for research.
I suppose it eventually begs the question of whether or not a zoo should exhibit animals (in this case specifically mammals) not suited to the local climate. Is the value of having those animals indoors of sufficient value? The indoor rainforests I referred to earlier I mentioned because they do have indoor exhibits that are of similar size to other outdoor exhibits I have seen for the same animal. (Jungleworld's Langurs and Minnesota Zoo's "island" for Gibbons being the examples I had specifically in mind when I posed my question).
Mammals in indoor exhibits
Sun Wukong:
1/ How can a statement that implies a 'tendency', and is therefore a generalisation, be 'too generalising'? I would maintain, as a 'generalisation', that your average rodent, for example, is less able to adapt to changes in temperature, than your average ungulate. One rodent behaviour coping mechanism is to go down a hole, making it harder to see.
2/ I try not to get personal, and you've been using this site a lot longer than me, and for all I know have far more knowledge and experience, but you might try to be a little less contentious; you appear to be more interested in argument than in animals.
3/ Like you said, sorry.
Sun Wukong:
1/ How can a statement that implies a 'tendency', and is therefore a generalisation, be 'too generalising'? I would maintain, as a 'generalisation', that your average rodent, for example, is less able to adapt to changes in temperature, than your average ungulate. One rodent behaviour coping mechanism is to go down a hole, making it harder to see.
2/ I try not to get personal, and you've been using this site a lot longer than me, and for all I know have far more knowledge and experience, but you might try to be a little less contentious; you appear to be more interested in argument than in animals.
3/ Like you said, sorry.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
LOL; I hope your "zoo related" job doesn't involve any academic work, "former student", as your basic ability of proper quoting and text understanding leaves a lot to be desired. Doesn't it, dear @Duckbill? And if you really cared less about my "blah blah blah", then why did you reply to my previous post? Seems I hit quite a nerve, to trigger such a huffy reply.
@FBBird: What is an "average rodent"? And when it comes to generalisation: is a pygmy hippo really less vulnerable to the climate of, say, Central or Northern Europe than a way smaller souslik, marten etc., just because of its larger size?
As for 2/: you don't think it is personal to accuse someone to be merely interested in arguing? But don't you worry: I wouldn't be doing my job if I weren't interested in animals. It just appears that some tender-hearted souls like to interpret my posts in a lot more sinister way than originally intended by me. Too bad...
And if you really cared less about my "blah blah blah", then why did you reply to my previous post? Seems I hit quite a nerve, to trigger such a huffy reply. @FBBird: What is an "average rodent"? And when it comes to generalisation: is a pygmy hippo really less vulnerable to the climate of, say, Central or Northern Europe than a way smaller souslik, marten etc., just because of its larger size?
As for 2/: you don't think it is personal to accuse someone to be merely interested in arguing?
But don't you worry: I wouldn't be doing my job if I weren't interested in animals. It just appears that some tender-hearted souls like to interpret my posts in a lot more sinister way than originally intended by me. Too bad...
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Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Toddy: It all depends on the involved dialogue partners. Or do you want to exchange pleasantries with Tarsius one more time instead?
@FBBird: May God also bless you. Unfortunately, said God probably made me "picky". Can't shed it.
As for the personal data: unlike other forum members, who bare their souls and marriage plans to the web, I better keep those infos to myself. If you happen to meet me in reality, you might try and ask me again. Being the friendly chap I am (believe it or not), I might even answer. As for questions & answers: any ideas what to reply to my previous ones addressing you?
@FBBird: May God also bless you. Unfortunately, said God probably made me "picky". Can't shed it.
As for the personal data: unlike other forum members, who bare their souls and marriage plans to the web, I better keep those infos to myself. If you happen to meet me in reality, you might try and ask me again. Being the friendly chap I am (believe it or not), I might even answer. As for questions & answers: any ideas what to reply to my previous ones addressing you?
Toddy
Well-Known Member
No, that was a one-time slip of temper that I actually regret. Not that I didn't mean everything I said but more the fact that I slipped down to that level of conversation. I have realised that he isn't going to be any less of a jerk just because I say so so why bother?
Anyway ....
Back to the thread and this simple answer to this question.... Is that there is no simple answer. The size, natural habitat of the species in question and the location of the zoo in question. Keep a sand cat in a large outside enclosure or in a small, climate controlled one?
You can argue until the cows come home, but on the thread the husbandry and well being of the animal is the key issue!
Back to the thread and this simple answer to this question.... Is that there is no simple answer. The size, natural habitat of the species in question and the location of the zoo in question. Keep a sand cat in a large outside enclosure or in a small, climate controlled one?
You can argue until the cows come home, but on the thread the husbandry and well being of the animal is the key issue!
nicholas
Well-Known Member
Going off topic again, but which one of these would you suggest? Having seen sand cats thrive and breed in a large outdoor enclosure, I would argee they are far better off when kept this way. Maybe UK has a climate too moist, but I doubt it is really a problem in most cases.
sealion
Well-Known Member
Has anyone mentioned polar bears? Because in hot places they are often inside in climate controlled environments. Would you say no to that and just have them exhibited in countries with very cold climates? or is this ok?
I personally think it lies more within the exhibit quality in this case...
I personally think it lies more within the exhibit quality in this case...
JBZvolunteer
Well-Known Member
You also have to consider the fact of the way it is presented in an indoor exhibit. if it is a free roam walk through exhibit this can be more mentually stimulating so even if they were kept in a smaller exhibit they can get more use out of this because of the high amount of mental stimulation.
