The gazelles have been gone for awhile and the second kudu even longer than that — years at this point. I am not exactly sure what happened to them, but they have all been gone for quite some time.
Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden Management and Direction of Cincinnati Zoo
- Thread starter Kudu21
- Start date
The gazelles have been gone for awhile and the second kudu even longer than that — years at this point. I am not exactly sure what happened to them, but they have all been gone for quite some time.
In your expert opinion, how good or bad is it for a lesser kudu to be housed singularly with no other ungulates? I was under the impression that with most ungulates singular housing is normally a bad thing.
Who even knows? I think they are tapped out when it comes to capital due to a massive development like the new elephant complex. It's causing the cumulative zoo to suffer a great deal IMO. They should have gotten out of the elephant business to keep the rest of the zoo robust. It's in tatters and keeps trending worse.
They have to know that their hippo situation is untenable. The most wanton of all wanton speculation would also be the most logical. Maybe they have an eye on hippo expansion out of necessity.
Either way, the much anticipated front lot development that became the Africa complex is currently a significant disappointment. If/when the giraffes move out it will be a barren waste. The zoo tends to backfill with unimpressive species when more high profile ones depart. At this rate the savannah exhibit will be a yard for Watusi cattle or rescue sulcatas.
I feel that your speculation leans more toward bongos, okapis, or zebras. You are likely correct.
I'll go back when the elephant complex opens. Until then, the place isn't worth the cost of a membership. I'd recommend to anyone considering going that they make the trip to nearby Columbus or even Louisville. Toledo has passed them, too if we're honest about it. I'll give my money to an institution that actually looks like they are trying.
Last edited:
Jacob F
Well-Known Member
I thought they also had Thomson's gazelles.
If you read through the thread, you would've noticed about four posts up from yours, another member asked the exact same question and got this response:
In the future, please read through the entire thread before asking a question, as it can be frustrating for threads to be bogged down with people re-asking questions that were already asked and/or sharing information that's already been shared.
Jacob F
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry.
There’s no real black-and-white answer to that question. The social needs of hoofstock can vary greatly between species, sexes, age, and individuals. In the wild, male lesser kudu are known to be less social than females, with younger males sometimes associating in bachelor herds and older males joining herds just for breeding; however, although I have not personally worked with this species, males do seem to integrate well into herds of females and their offspring in captivity. That said, the same is written about bongo, and despite this, in my experience, bongo bulls are very social animals and are quite the doting fathers. I believe that there is a lot we do not yet understand about social dynamics and communication in the animal kingdom and that such observations are likely more complicated than they first appear. While I personally am a big proponent of integrating males into herds full-time whenever possible, I would not feel comfortable passing judgement on the social situation of this particular animal without knowing more details about him as individual and his social history. I do know that this individual is nearly ten years old, so he is roughly at the median life expectancy for a male lesser kudu, and that he is very habituated to humans. How would an animal of his age handle being reintroduced to conspecifics or contraspecifics? How has he interacted with them in the past? (Bachelor herds tend to break down over time, so he’s likely too old to be housed with other males without incident, and he’s never been transferred into a breeding situation, so he must be surplus.) Would the benefits of doing so outweigh the risks when he has regular human socialization? And that’s only scratching the surface.
Disclaimer: I accidentally posted this in the hippo discussion thread thinking it was the news thread at first. It was a video shared there that provoked me to post this, but sense this is more about the zoo as a whole it seems more appropriate here.
I haven't yet visited Cincinnati so perhaps I'm not getting the full picture, but this zoo has to have some of the worst upper management I've ever seen from a major AZA institution. Nowhere is this more exemplified than this hippo situation. It was so unnecessary and completely reckless bringing in a breeding male to an exhibit that was already barely adequate for a single animal. Now an already far too small exhibit is a crowded mess that is completely inappropriate for managing this many individuals. If they keep ignoring keepers this could get very bad very fast. God forbid Fiona becomes pregnant, which would almost certainly take this disaster to defcon 1.
It's not just the hippos either, but so many other poor decisions that have occurred over the years that are all culminating in an immensely frustrating zoo. I cannot believe the zoo is already having to replace its giraffe exhibit which only opened in 2008. What other zoo is having to replace exhibits that are not even 15 years old? I've seen photos of the giraffe barn and I am positively baffled how they thought a building not even 3,000 square feet in size was acceptable and while I'm glad they are soon being moved to a far better accommodation in the current elephant house, it never should have had to have come to that. Night Hunters isn't even a decade old and is already severely out of date, the African savanna has been reduced to an empty field with a few pinioned birds, and even the upcoming black bear exhibit looks entirely mediocre and once again far too small.
I know a lot of what I just said has been repeated at nauseam, but it just amazes me how badly Cincinnati has fallen from grace. This was once a zoo that was a leader in innovative exhibitry, now they're barely meeting the status quo. Elephant Trek looks like it'll be really good no doubt, but otherwise I am not all optimistic about the future here.
I haven't yet visited Cincinnati so perhaps I'm not getting the full picture, but this zoo has to have some of the worst upper management I've ever seen from a major AZA institution. Nowhere is this more exemplified than this hippo situation. It was so unnecessary and completely reckless bringing in a breeding male to an exhibit that was already barely adequate for a single animal. Now an already far too small exhibit is a crowded mess that is completely inappropriate for managing this many individuals. If they keep ignoring keepers this could get very bad very fast. God forbid Fiona becomes pregnant, which would almost certainly take this disaster to defcon 1.
It's not just the hippos either, but so many other poor decisions that have occurred over the years that are all culminating in an immensely frustrating zoo. I cannot believe the zoo is already having to replace its giraffe exhibit which only opened in 2008. What other zoo is having to replace exhibits that are not even 15 years old? I've seen photos of the giraffe barn and I am positively baffled how they thought a building not even 3,000 square feet in size was acceptable and while I'm glad they are soon being moved to a far better accommodation in the current elephant house, it never should have had to have come to that. Night Hunters isn't even a decade old and is already severely out of date, the African savanna has been reduced to an empty field with a few pinioned birds, and even the upcoming black bear exhibit looks entirely mediocre and once again far too small.
I know a lot of what I just said has been repeated at nauseam, but it just amazes me how badly Cincinnati has fallen from grace. This was once a zoo that was a leader in innovative exhibitry, now they're barely meeting the status quo. Elephant Trek looks like it'll be really good no doubt, but otherwise I am not all optimistic about the future here.
At least the management isn't:
a. stealing/misusing funds for personal gain (Columbus)
b. secretly complete under-the-table animal transfers to a facility owned by the director (Lowry Park Zoo)
Those are both worse management than whatever's going on with Cincinnati.
Corangurilla
Well-Known Member
What happened with ZooTampa?
(Not to take things too off-topic, but I think I need a little more context before I say anything else)
I was mainly referring to current zoo management across the country, but yes of course these two examples were indeed very scandalous. Even so, I'm not sure how much either of these actually affected the zoo beyond reputation. I'm not justifying what happened at these zoos, but I want to emphasize my comments were directed at the decisions that have changed Cincinnati into an increasingly uninspired zoo with a plethora of animal management problems.
Tampa's former director, Lex Salisbury, took over $200,000 in animals and equipment from the zoo for his private ranch and in general was a shady figure. This was back in 2008 and the zoo has moved on sense then, but you can look up some old articles to find some more details.
Neither of those put animals' health and safety at risk, though, as bad as they both were.
Corangurilla
Well-Known Member
Ah, thanks.
I think the difference is that Cincinnati is blatantly screwing up and nobody outside of Zoochat has called them out. Their hippo situation is dire, but since Fiona is America’s favorite zoo animal, nobody questions anything. They all go “awww!” at moments that could’ve ended with “AAAAAAHHHH!”.
Again, this feels greedy, unprofessional, exploitative, and dare I say… un-zoo-like.
The video @Great Argus posted is a perfect example. Most of the comments are about what a great family video it is and other positive remarks, or downplaying what is going on as a little family argument.
Personally I'd like to know where all the revenue they're raking in from Fiona and Fritz is going - they clearly make enough to create a huge line of custom Fiona stuff and still have it selling even now. What we're currently seeing is an AZA facility using questionable husbandry to facilitate continued interest and income. Watching the apparent increasing aggression going on with nothing done by the facility is making this ever the more shameful that this is an AZA. Tucker clearly should not be mixed with the girls at this point, yet they continue to do so anyway. The more the adult hippos fight, the greater chance of Fritz getting trampled. Fiona is the most likely to get hurt in an all out fight, she's much smaller than the other two. Either of the two youngsters gets severely hurt or dies, Cincy's PR is toast. It's been teetering dangerously ever since they took the risk of putting all four hippos on exhibit together. If Fiona ends up pregnant and starts becoming more aggressive, that will make things even worse and leave them with two mother daughter pairs and a bull in an exhibit and bts designed for *two* hippos. Personally I would like to see them get a warning re accreditation from the AZA, much as I hate saying it. Cincinnati is acting like a roadside and this needs to stop.
Joseph G
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of hot takes about Cincinnati Zoo that I find completely unwarranted. Maybe it’s just personal opinion.
My wife and I relocated from Miami, Florida to Cincinnati in September. Already members that have been to the zoo five or six times. We found it entertaining and engaging enough the first visit to justify a membership right before the winter months.
I completely understand the concern about the hippo “situation,” but Tucker’s transfer is a result of the SSP, not some secret conspiracy to mass produce baby hippos. I’m also sure the SSP is aware of the track record of hippos on birth control, as this isn’t the first time it’s happened.
Second, this is clearly a zoo in transition and one that’s had to move around capital over the years to adjust to its popularity. There is a fair amount of warranted criticism. Night Hunters is a shell of its former self. The bear grottos are unsightly under construction. The Savannah is extremely barren with hoofstock departures, but also because every avian species not behind glass (minus ostrich) is off exhibit. And for most of the criticisms, adjustments are being made. Would we prefer the bear grottos remain behind a fence like at Brookfield? Or wait for the giraffe heard to die out before building a new exhibit like Erie? Or just leaving exhibits dormant with no replacements unless they are interesting to us ZooChatters?
I guess I don’t understand why Cincinnati takes so much heat about some of the things it does, when the zoo I just came from in Miami is a shell of its former self from as recently as 2019, but no one says anything because it has an interesting hoofstock collection.
My wife and I relocated from Miami, Florida to Cincinnati in September. Already members that have been to the zoo five or six times. We found it entertaining and engaging enough the first visit to justify a membership right before the winter months.
I completely understand the concern about the hippo “situation,” but Tucker’s transfer is a result of the SSP, not some secret conspiracy to mass produce baby hippos. I’m also sure the SSP is aware of the track record of hippos on birth control, as this isn’t the first time it’s happened.
Second, this is clearly a zoo in transition and one that’s had to move around capital over the years to adjust to its popularity. There is a fair amount of warranted criticism. Night Hunters is a shell of its former self. The bear grottos are unsightly under construction. The Savannah is extremely barren with hoofstock departures, but also because every avian species not behind glass (minus ostrich) is off exhibit. And for most of the criticisms, adjustments are being made. Would we prefer the bear grottos remain behind a fence like at Brookfield? Or wait for the giraffe heard to die out before building a new exhibit like Erie? Or just leaving exhibits dormant with no replacements unless they are interesting to us ZooChatters?
I guess I don’t understand why Cincinnati takes so much heat about some of the things it does, when the zoo I just came from in Miami is a shell of its former self from as recently as 2019, but no one says anything because it has an interesting hoofstock collection.
It was indeed an SSP transfer, but the fact still stands that Cincinnati does not have the space to properly house and separate the current bloat. It is also increasingly apparent the animals are not satisfied with the housing situation and are taking it out on each other during public hours. Tucker was visibly bleeding in front of the public in the video I linked in the other thread - whether caused by another Hippo or in retreat into something is unknown, but regardless the visible shock in the public's voices is very clear. As a whole is it becoming clear that the hippos are not particularly compatible as a herd and separation may prove necessary, which overrides SSP breeding recommendations. Animals cannot breed if severely injured or deceased...
Joseph G
Well-Known Member
Then I am unaware of the chain of command in this situation. Am I just naive in thinking the Population Management Center, SSP Coordinator, or even Studbook Keeper would be acting on any concerns? Or is this fully on Cincinnati to say, “We can’t do this, find somewhere for Tucker”?
I think it's really up to Cincinnati here to say 'hey, this isn't working, we need to find a more suitable home for Tucker'. The Studbook keeper is only really in charge of the breeding size of things.
The individual institution does have the power to say and set an institutional capacity for each SSP species it houses. It has the power to say we have space or we do not have space for a breeding situation and in that case, animals are moved around so institutions with larger capacities are usually doing the breeding, and institutions with less space hold aging/young/or genetically surplus individuals. And the Population Management Center usually just looks at the group of animals as a whole in the country as well as the genetic situation currently and in the future.