Marwell Wildlife Marwell news 2012

[Dicerorhinus]

Come on, ceasing production of “a proper annual report” annual report and the transition of a newsletter to digital distribution is hardly a “death knell”. It’s simply moving with the times.

I’m sure many of you collect zoo memorabilia but when was the last time you perused a newsletter form 1994? If anything wouldn’t a transition to digital media make you more likely to read them? it would certainly expedite and simplify searching them for specific articles. I buy a lot of books and I’m quite happy to have them sitting on the shelves which adorn my office but last year I recycled 2 car loads of zoo guidebooks, magazines and newsletters (which I had accrued over 20+ years for zoos in the USA, UK and Europe) because I never read them, my reference book collection is expanding and I don’t like clutter.
There’s plenty rational criticism of Marwell that you make but I really can’t make sense of this. If having a tangible copy is important to you can’t you print one?
Sometimes I wonder if there are too many old fuddy-duddies who oppose change for the sake of it.

 

[sooty mangabey]

Come on, ceasing production of “a proper annual report” annual report and the transition of a newsletter to digital distribution is hardly a “death knell”. It’s simply moving with the times.

I’m sure many of you collect zoo memorabilia but when was the last time you perused a newsletter form 1994? If anything wouldn’t a transition to digital media make you more likely to read them? it would certainly expedite and simplify searching them for specific articles. I buy a lot of books and I’m quite happy to have them sitting on the shelves which adorn my office but last year I recycled 2 car loads of zoo guidebooks, magazines and newsletters (which I had accrued over 20+ years for zoos in the USA, UK and Europe) because I never read them, my reference book collection is expanding and I don’t like clutter.
There’s plenty rational criticism of Marwell that you make but I really can’t make sense of this. If having a tangible copy is important to you can’t you print one?
Sometimes I wonder if there are too many old fuddy-duddies who oppose change for the sake of it.

Compared to some of the things you've called me in the past, "fuddy-duddy" is relatively benign, so I won't take offence!

Of course the times they are a-changing, and digital media will, increasingly, come to dominate. And if it was only that they were no longer producing paper copies of their reports and magazines, then that wouldn't be an issue. But, for me, it is symptomatic of a broader malaise at the place, a loss of solidity and integrity. My use of this example was, perhaps, akin to looking at the present government and using Andrew Mitchell's description of a policeman as a "pleb" to condemn it.... His choice of words was, really, irrelevant, but it seems to stand for what some seem to be the wider failings of those in power. Likewise, of course the loss of a paper annual report is not the end of the world, but, for me, it is a salient example of how Marwell has lost its way.

 

[TriGB]

There's a point here everyone - re the digitalisation of zoo newsletters. Should we not be setting an example and encouraging less paper? If we are on here (Zoochat) then we could all access an e-magazine for our respective zoo.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I honestly fail to see how a change in distribution method of a zoo’s publications can relate to status of the collection.
I visited the zoo this summer for the first time in nearly 10 years. For the most part the zoo hadn’t changed. I think it’s always been an unremarkable zoo. It does penguins and ungulates well (with perhaps the exception of rhinos and hippos) and the primate exhibits for all but macaques are bad to terrible. I don’t see any real innovation now and it wasn’t evident in the past so I’m not sure what all of the fuss is about.

 

[pipaluk]

I honestly fail to see how a change in distribution method of a zoo’s publications can relate to status of the collection.
I visited the zoo this summer for the first time in nearly 10 years. For the most part the zoo hadn’t changed. I think it’s always been an unremarkable zoo. It does penguins and ungulates well (with perhaps the exception of rhinos and hippos) and the primate exhibits for all but macaques are bad to terrible. I don’t see any real innovation now and it wasn’t evident in the past so I’m not sure what all of the fuss is about.[/QUOTE

Marwell has always had a pretty poor primate collection, but even that has reduced in recent years, i wouldn't describe too many enclosures as totally awful though!
Amazingly i now find myself defending Marwell, since you have attacked its pygmy hippo exhibit, which granted isn't very inspiring, but having seen all the exhibits in the uk apart from S Lakes(which i cant imagine is great), i would say at worst its above average! Its certainly better than Colchester, Bristol or Londons & probably Edinburgh is no better. Only Whipsnade beats it for me.

 

[FBBird]

Marwell Wildlife

I take exception to the description of Marwell as 'unremarkable'. Under John Knowles the hoofstock collection was amazing -- big herd of Przewalski's Horses, all the Oryx species, all three full species of Zebra, plus Snow Leopard and Siberian Tiger when these species were not commonplace. I believe quite a few species were involved in restocking the wild.
However, any organisation started by a charismatic individual is likely to change when that person dies, leaves or is pushed out. Possibly the only UK zoo where this could have happened, and didn't, is Chester.
And yes, Marwell isn't as exciting as it used to be. Great herds of hoofstock were the soul of the place, along with a few choice felines. However, I believe they still have Takin, which are always stunning.

 

[zoogiraffe]

I have always liked Marwell,in fact I still do despite all the negative comments coming from the Marwell regulars,personnaly I think we should wait and see what the next 12-18 months brings,as I'm pretty sure it will involve a few surprises that none of us are aware,of that will make us stop and re-think that may be we were to soon in criticizing,the place and how it is being run!

 

[pipaluk]

I have always liked Marwell,in fact I still do despite all the negative comments coming from the Marwell regulars,personnaly I think we should wait and see what the next 12-18 months brings,as I'm pretty sure it will involve a few surprises that none of us are aware,of that will make us stop and re-think that may be we were to soon in criticizing,the place and how it is being run!

I really hope you are right ZG, the failure to surprise was one of my criticisms! Several zoos do, but Marwell hasn't since i began visiting fairly regularly again 6 years ago.

 

[zoogiraffe]

I really hope you are right ZG, the failure to surprise was one of my criticisms! Several zoos do, but Marwell hasn't since i began visiting fairly regularly again 6 years ago.

Every zoo can go through a period of little change,after a change of leadership,at the top despite what has been said on here,it has even happened at Chester but because of the size of the collection at Chester it wasn't noticed quite the same,but believe me it did and even now the collection is in a process of change!

 

[pipaluk]

Every zoo can go through a period of little change,after a change of leadership,at the top despite what has been said on here,it has even happened at Chester but because of the size of the collection at Chester it wasn't noticed quite the same,but believe me it did and even now the collection is in a process of change!

Maybe you're right, it's probably just down to all the new species i've seen brought in at Colchester, Whipsnade, Chester, Edinburgh, even small collections like Wingham or Hamerton over the last few years, that i expect more of Marwell too!

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I take exception to the description of Marwell as 'unremarkable'. Under John Knowles the hoofstock collection was amazing -- big herd of Przewalski's Horses, all the Oryx species, all three full species of Zebra, plus Snow Leopard and Siberian Tiger when these species were not commonplace. I believe quite a few species were involved in restocking the wild.
However, any organisation started by a charismatic individual is likely to change when that person dies, leaves or is pushed out. Possibly the only UK zoo where this could have happened, and didn't, is Chester.
And yes, Marwell isn't as exciting as it used to be. Great herds of hoofstock were the soul of the place, along with a few choice felines. However, I believe they still have Takin, which are always stunning.

I can only speak from my experience (my first visit was around 20 years ago)
I suppose it's all relative. If you've been to some of the major American zoos then the ungulate species exhibited at Marwell are rather run of the mill. Even if you make this comparison 10-15 years ago. There are no real rarities if that's your thing.
The majority of the ungulates at Marwell are housed appropriately with plenty of space and grazing, but that's not difficult to achieve. Again opinion is based on my experience but when you see 20+ species in vast exhibits and the work that goes into managing them it gives you a different perspective. Marwell weren't doing anything Whipsnade hadn't done long before it.
I don't think Siberian Tigers have been scarce in captivity during the foundation of Marwell.
They do still have Takin.
Having a "complete set" isn't something I'd consider remarkable*** (did they ever exhibit East African Oryx?).



***Unless the species concerned are notoriously difficult to maintain in captivity such as Douc Langurs.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Marwell has always had a pretty poor primate collection, but even that has reduced in recent years, i wouldn't describe too many enclosures as totally awful though!
Amazingly i now find myself defending Marwell, since you have attacked its pygmy hippo exhibit, which granted isn't very inspiring, but having seen all the exhibits in the uk apart from S Lakes(which i cant imagine is great), i would say at worst its above average! Its certainly better than Colchester, Bristol or Londons & probably Edinburgh is no better. Only Whipsnade beats it for me.

It's not the primate collection I dislike but the accommodation Marwell provides them. I think the Callitrichid cages are dire. The Colobus enclosure lacked height and enrichment and the Siamang exhibit was entirely inappropriate for the species.

Saying that Marwell’s Hippo enclosure is the best of a bad bunch isn't a positive thing!
Believe it or not there are actually Pygmy Hippos exhibited outside of the UK and sometimes their enclosures are of high quality. sometimes...

 

[pipaluk]

It's not the primate collection I dislike but the accommodation Marwell provides them. I think the Callitrichid cages are dire. The Colobus enclosure lacked height and enrichment and the Siamang exhibit was entirely inappropriate for the species.

Saying that Marwell’s Hippo enclosure is the best of a bad bunch isn't a positive thing!
Believe it or not there are actually Pygmy Hippos exhibited outside of the UK and sometimes their enclosures are of high quality. sometimes...

I know you were referring to the enclosures & i said none were awful, but now i think of it i will concede, the budgie type aviary cages near the hall holding the goeldis and saki, are pretty dire! The colobus cage does lack a bit of height outside, but other than that it could be reasonable, but that maybe why ive only once seen a monkey outside in about 20 visits and that was a single diana!

I have no doubt there might be better pygmy hippo exhibits outside the UK, but as you said, 'its all relative' , and this is a UK forum after all.

 

[gentle lemur]

I can only speak from my experience (my first visit was around 20 years ago)
I suppose it's all relative. If you've been to some of the major American zoos then the ungulate species exhibited at Marwell are rather run of the mill. Even if you make this comparison 10-15 years ago. There are no real rarities if that's your thing.

My experience is rather longer than yours as I first visited Marwell soon after the park opened. Like zoogiraffe, I still have a lot of respect for the place.
I can assure you that my first view of the paddock in front of the Hall with its herds of scimitar-horned oryx and Grevy's zebra was breathtaking! The herd of oryx was certainly the largest in any zoo in the world (I've checked the 1975 figures in an old Yearbook) and Grevy's were very uncommon in the UK at the time.
The other great speciality was the large herd of Przewalski horses, which was unusually prolific as Mr Knowles had imported the stallion 'Catskill Basil' from the USA to mate with unrelated mares from the Prague line. In addition they held groups of sable antelope, nyala, impala and ellipsen waterbuck which were also very unusual species. The fact that the zoo still holds these species, except for the impala, is a genuine achievement.
I still classify scimitar-horned oryx as real rarities on a global scale, although I am very pleased that they are so much commoner in zoos today. The Somali wild ass is another really rare species.
I would agree that the other species at Marwell may not be a particularly exciting combination, but the cat collection is nice and the takin, anoa, white-tailed gnu and okapi are well worth seeing too. My personal favourites are the Alaotra gentle lemurs which make a very nice display: this is unquestionably another really rare species, which we are lucky to have in so many collections in the UK.

Alan

 

[Dicerorhinus]

My experience is rather longer than yours as I first visited Marwell soon after the park opened. Like zoogiraffe, I still have a lot of respect for the place.
I can assure you that my first view of the paddock in front of the Hall with its herds of scimitar-horned oryx and Grevy's zebra was breathtaking! The herd of oryx was certainly the largest in any zoo in the world (I've checked the 1975 figures in an old Yearbook) and Grevy's were very uncommon in the UK at the time.
The other great speciality was the large herd of Przewalski horses, which was unusually prolific as Mr Knowles had imported the stallion 'Catskill Basil' from the USA to mate with unrelated mares from the Prague line. In addition they held groups of sable antelope, nyala, impala and ellipsen waterbuck which were also very unusual species. The fact that the zoo still holds these species, except for the impala, is a genuine achievement.
I still classify scimitar-horned oryx as real rarities on a global scale, although I am very pleased that they are so much commoner in zoos today. The Somali wild ass is another really rare species.
I would agree that the other species at Marwell may not be a particularly exciting combination, but the cat collection is nice and the takin, anoa, white-tailed gnu and okapi are well worth seeing too. My personal favourites are the Alaotra gentle lemurs which make a very nice display: this is unquestionably another really rare species, which we are lucky to have in so many collections in the UK.

Alan

Alan, I was younger than 10 years old when I first visited Marwell but I vividly remember being very excited to see a Snow Leopard and being a little disappointed when we got to the enclosure and it was just a cage an empty square cage with a wooden platform in the middle all that was visible was leopards tail dangling over the side of the platform. I had already been to Bush Gardens and seen the huge mixed savannah exhibits from the monorail which included Impala, Waterbuck, Oryx, Giraffe, Grevy Zebra, Rhino, Dorcas & Slender Horned Gazelle so perhaps that's why I found it so underwhelming.. It's interesting you consider Scimitar Horned Oryx a rarity, I think they're easily in the top 3 most commonly exhibited Antelope in the world (they're even common in Australia, I've even seen them in Indonesia). I suppose I have grown up in a time where Przewalski horses, Sable and Nyala are common. I think I have seen Lac Alaotra Lemurs at all most every zoo I have visited in the UK this year, but you're correct it wasn't so long ago I saw this species for the first time and it's a credit to Jersey that they've flourished.

I actually have no memory of antelope in front of the house, perhaps I've missed the path that would provide that view?

 

[pipaluk]

I'm afraid that we weren't all fortunate ( or maybe unfortunate in some respects) to spend our childhoods in Florida, but i can assure you that to an 11 year old on a first visit in 1978, Marwell was an amazing collection of species, many i'd never seen in other zoos e.g asiatic lion,snow leopard, persian leopard, s-h oryx, white-tailed gnu, 2 sub-species of tiger side by side, hunting dog, the 3 zebra species & many more. Comparing your 90s experiences of US theme parks is hardly relevant to Marwell.

 

[JamesB]

I have always liked Marwell,in fact I still do despite all the negative comments coming from the Marwell regulars,personnaly I think we should wait and see what the next 12-18 months brings,as I'm pretty sure it will involve a few surprises that none of us are aware,of that will make us stop and re-think that may be we were to soon in criticizing,the place and how it is being run!

Do you have inside information or is that just a wild guess? Just interested.

 

[Dicerorhinus]

I'm afraid that we weren't all fortunate ( or maybe unfortunate in some respects) to spend our childhoods in Florida,

There can't be many Children who don't like fun. Besides it's not all rollercoasters and amusement parks we watched a shuttle launch and went snorkeling with wild Manatees among other things.

but i can assure you that to an 11 year old on a first visit in 1978, Marwell was an amazing collection of species, many i'd never seen in other zoos e.g asiatic lion,snow leopard, persian leopard, s-h oryx, white-tailed gnu, 2 sub-species of tiger side by side, hunting dog, the 3 zebra species & many more. Comparing your 90s experiences of US theme parks is hardly relevant to Marwell.

It’s great you thought Marwell was amazing as a child, what do you think you would have thought of San Diego Wild Animal Park had you walked through its turnstiles in 1978?
Members have been saying that Marwell had gone into decline in recent years. The point I’m trying to make is, in my opinion the place has barely changed in 20 years. Maybe it was fantastic prior to this?
Marwell did/does have a decent collection of hoofstock, but it’s not exceptional either in terms of unusual species (which in my opinion there are currently none) or with the execution of exhibits.
During 1999-2002 I spent my University summer holidays travelling North America, Europe then Asia/Australasia. I saw a small heard of Zebra Duiker, Giant Eland, Sumatran Rhino and Mountain Tapir at Cincinnati Zoo, at Gladys Porter I saw three Jentink’s Duiker, Harnessed Bushbuck and Hirola both of these zoos also exhibited Indian Rhino, White/Black Rhino, Okapi and Yellow backed Duiker. At Dvur and SDWAP I saw Northern White Rhinos and literally dozens of other ungulate species and I’m only talking about hoofstock species here.
So again, I suppose it’s all relative. However as far as I’m concerned Marwell is a zoo and I draw comparisons with all the zoos I have visited. If Ungulates are Marwells strength then I would say on this group alone it’s even surpassed by Port Lympne.
If I had only been to Medan Zoo then I’m sure I would think Hamerton was okay but I haven’t and it’s not. Marwell isn’t a bad zoo it’s just not a remarkable one.

 

[TARZAN]

I'm afraid that we weren't all fortunate ( or maybe unfortunate in some respects) to spend our childhoods in Florida, but i can assure you that to an 11 year old on a first visit in 1978, Marwell was an amazing collection of species, many i'd never seen in other zoos e.g asiatic lion,snow leopard, persian leopard, s-h oryx, white-tailed gnu, 2 sub-species of tiger side by side, hunting dog, the 3 zebra species & many more. Comparing your 90s experiences of US theme parks is hardly relevant to Marwell.

Exactly, that's why it is just as important today, as it was back in 1978, for the zoos in the U.K. to present a decent, interesting collection to the youngsters visiting,and hopefully capture their imagination regarding wildlife, not all families are in a fortunate financial position to afford holidays abroad to Florida etc.

 

[pipaluk]

Fair enough Dicerorhinus , it certainly isn't remarkable now, and its enclosures weren't then either(but for the 70s most emclosures were good!), but its species list certainly was.
I don't object to you comparing like for like to some degree , so comparing Marwell, which regards itself as a major uk zoo to zoos in other countries is more acceptable than trying to compare a low budget zoo like Hamerton.
I think to hold up a commercial place like Busch Gardens as a comparison wasn't really fair. Its hardly a serious conservation concious zoological institution when almost every advert i see seems to focus on white tigers!
I would obviously have loved to go to San Diego and still would, but Busch Gardens wouldn't be a priority if i was over there!