So would I. Dokkoon, first, then the nine year old (she's could well be old enough already too...
Melbourne Zoo Melbournes New Elephants.....
- Thread starter patrick
- Start date
So would I. Dokkoon, first, then the nine year old (she's could well be old enough already too...
Melbourne elephant behaviour
patrick,
In both databases relating to the captive Asian elephant population worldwide Kulab is listed as a 7-year old female. Are you sure about Kulab's age at 9? Could you please check with the keepers next you visit?
However, even at this age some Asians go on to breed. F.i. a female at Ramat-Gan Zoo, Wered, born 1991 gave birth for the first time in 1996! So, if she is cycling and Bong Su would mate her, she might fall pregnant.
Regarding the breeding of elephants, it does not take a genius mind to make out that Melbourne is probably the first location to celebrate the "first" elephant birth in Oz.
I am very sad the Tarongans want to experiment with AI for both their 15-year old females. I figure it would be much better to bring in Bong Su on a sex holiday and let him do the business naturally. Judging from his promising behaviour through the fence at Melbourne he is a natural when it comes to the mating game!
patrick,
In both databases relating to the captive Asian elephant population worldwide Kulab is listed as a 7-year old female. Are you sure about Kulab's age at 9? Could you please check with the keepers next you visit?
However, even at this age some Asians go on to breed. F.i. a female at Ramat-Gan Zoo, Wered, born 1991 gave birth for the first time in 1996! So, if she is cycling and Bong Su would mate her, she might fall pregnant.
Regarding the breeding of elephants, it does not take a genius mind to make out that Melbourne is probably the first location to celebrate the "first" elephant birth in Oz.
I am very sad the Tarongans want to experiment with AI for both their 15-year old females. I figure it would be much better to bring in Bong Su on a sex holiday and let him do the business naturally. Judging from his promising behaviour through the fence at Melbourne he is a natural when it comes to the mating game!
Not really. The Perth Zoos bull regularly mates with one of their femaels. There was a stromg chance that they would be the first. It is still possible.
many times over the years i have heard the melbourne keepers say he is very docile as far as bulls go. he was roughing up dokoon a bit with his tusks but as was explained, if dokkoon wasn't okay with it she would simply back away...she was protected through the fence.
between taronga and auckland i have never understood what their logic and reasoning was with the elephant import. taronga had no intention of even aquiring a bull until auckland bailed out. then they picked an immature one and two mature females, knowning very well the risks associated with doing so i assume. melboure have done whats best for them and it would jeopardise their program to loan bong-su to them.
the melbourne elephants were quite well balanced in age to give them a shot at a more staggered build up to breeding all their females. unfortunately, heman died, not long after the thai elephants arrived, however i still don't rule out that if they had kept him and burma at taronga and better designed the exhibit for protected management from the start, they may have just managed to get a year or two to try out a heman/thai elephant pregnacy.
oh well. good on melbourne (and perth) for making integration of their existing elephants a priority.
between taronga and auckland i have never understood what their logic and reasoning was with the elephant import. taronga had no intention of even aquiring a bull until auckland bailed out. then they picked an immature one and two mature females, knowning very well the risks associated with doing so i assume. melboure have done whats best for them and it would jeopardise their program to loan bong-su to them.
the melbourne elephants were quite well balanced in age to give them a shot at a more staggered build up to breeding all their females. unfortunately, heman died, not long after the thai elephants arrived, however i still don't rule out that if they had kept him and burma at taronga and better designed the exhibit for protected management from the start, they may have just managed to get a year or two to try out a heman/thai elephant pregnacy.
oh well. good on melbourne (and perth) for making integration of their existing elephants a priority.
Jelle, of course, it is highly unlikely that Melbourne would move Bong Su to Taronga in the coming years, while they are working so hard to introduce him to the rest of the group, and to produce a calf at Melbourne. Let along the logistics of crate-building and training, and the move itself.
And even if they did move him for a short while, and he impregnated one or more females at Taronga, that would leave us with the next generation of elephants at both institutions being half siblings. In my opinion, it is a far better option to import semen from unrelated bulls, and bring a new bloodline into our region.
perhaps bong-su can be traded with gung once dokkoon and kulab are pregnant. the melbourne females obviously wouldn't be ready to breed again for a few years, giving gung an opportunity to mature - by the time the melbourne females can breed again, hopefully gung will be of breeding age. Meanwhile bong-su can mate with porntip and pak-boon (the whole maternal experiences for the tang-mo, tong-dee thing). Maybe by the time this occurs, both tong-dee and tang-mo may also be of appropriate breeding age.
just a suggestion.
just a suggestion.
very true zoopro (and where have you been?),
though it was nothing more than a name drop - the mention of singapore zoo in the australiasian elephant program was a little bit of music to my ears. if true, this is good logic probably for both singaporeans and australiasians. obviously there are an aweful lot of asian elephants in SEAZA zoos and other sources in SE asia. however singapore is world renowned as one of the best zoos there is. obviously they want to be sure they are not only aquiring but also loaning elephants to legitimate establishments. having so few "non-dodgy" zoos in southeast asia and so few large zoos in australia, logic would assume a close link is best for both parties.
do you know anything more on this apparent relationship?
though it was nothing more than a name drop - the mention of singapore zoo in the australiasian elephant program was a little bit of music to my ears. if true, this is good logic probably for both singaporeans and australiasians. obviously there are an aweful lot of asian elephants in SEAZA zoos and other sources in SE asia. however singapore is world renowned as one of the best zoos there is. obviously they want to be sure they are not only aquiring but also loaning elephants to legitimate establishments. having so few "non-dodgy" zoos in southeast asia and so few large zoos in australia, logic would assume a close link is best for both parties.
do you know anything more on this apparent relationship?
oh and on another note - whilst its all speculation the emphasis i get from melbs keepers is "flexability". they don't know what they are going to do exatly when it comes to any hypothetical moving of elephants, but there are options and potential options available. they seem to have a "cross that bridge when they come to it" kinda attitude knowing very well that a decision will be made based on the situation at the time.
i think in the medium term we will see all our elephants staying put, but they haven't ruled out semi-splitting "herds" and moving paired females in the long-term as a way of managing the animals. i suspect we will definately come to a situation where we may have an issue with space at te city zoos, particuarly if we have any male calfs born. however if you think about the timing, by the time a young zoo-born bull must be moved, its almost certain at the very least one or both elephant exhibits at dubbo will be empty.
and thats if no other breeding zoo requires this hypothetic males services at that time....
its pretty open in th elong-term and thats a good thing. my biggest concern is that the city zoos will very fast run out of space. after seeing all five elephants in the melbourne cow barn the other day, i struggled to imagine how they would fit more than one or two more elephants in there...
i think in the medium term we will see all our elephants staying put, but they haven't ruled out semi-splitting "herds" and moving paired females in the long-term as a way of managing the animals. i suspect we will definately come to a situation where we may have an issue with space at te city zoos, particuarly if we have any male calfs born. however if you think about the timing, by the time a young zoo-born bull must be moved, its almost certain at the very least one or both elephant exhibits at dubbo will be empty.
and thats if no other breeding zoo requires this hypothetic males services at that time....
its pretty open in th elong-term and thats a good thing. my biggest concern is that the city zoos will very fast run out of space. after seeing all five elephants in the melbourne cow barn the other day, i struggled to imagine how they would fit more than one or two more elephants in there...
Monarto has en elephant enclosure with barn too, which is used for quarantine purposes and a temporary holding facility. Two male black Rhinos from Dubbo are currently using it.
Monarto also has plans for elephants in the mid to long term. In the latest regional census, they note both African and Asian. Keeping options open I suppose, as politically it may be easier to bring in African elephants that might otherwise be culled.....
Monarto also has plans for elephants in the mid to long term. In the latest regional census, they note both African and Asian. Keeping options open I suppose, as politically it may be easier to bring in African elephants that might otherwise be culled.....
i would love more afri9can elephnat in austrlia, especially at places like dubbo, who are re-nowned for africans, but sadley, our priorities lie with the asiastic species, and just as well, it's a high;ly endagered species, mroeso than that of the asiastic (about 35 000 asian to 500 000 africans)
though in sayying this, if a facility can handle both african, and asian, with suffiecnt funding to both programs, and adequate afcilities staff, and resourcres, and to contribute enough to the wild conservation, than so be it
though in sayying this, if a facility can handle both african, and asian, with suffiecnt funding to both programs, and adequate afcilities staff, and resourcres, and to contribute enough to the wild conservation, than so be it
For the first time in many years something stimulating is happening for 'Bong Su' He may becom less docile as a result, but I would doubt it.
I agree with ZooPro that its better not have all females in your region (hypothetically) pregnant by one bull. But if in the future they do want to try him with Taronga females, it would probably be easier and more convenient to transport females to him at Melbourne (room permitting?) ,than to risk moving him the other way.
what about when a calf is born, that is male, at the present it is hard for sex selection, despite the zoo's not wanting all females, if melbourne has a bull, then he could be transported to taronga, and Gung to western plains, of course if you peice this together, gung will have sired many calves by this time, so new blood needed, and vice vera in long term.
by this time, so new blood needed, and vice vera in long term.Couldn't Perth's bull be loaned to Taronga? Or send a Taronga female to Perth? It sounds like he's older than Gung and already mating- but isn't there a problem with the Perth females? Or they could do a temporary exchange of bulls with Taronga...
Couldn't Perth's bull be loaned to Taronga? Or send the Taronga females in turn, or even together, to Perth? It sounds like he's older than Gung and already mating- but isn't there a problem with the Perth females? Or they could do a temporary exchange of bulls with Taronga...
Perth or other bull
I am glad our Ozzie friends are back after the holidays. I look forward to some lively discussions on zoo matters in Australia and New Zealand!!!
Given the promising situation in Melbourne, I agree it maybe better to use a different bull for both breeding age females at Taronga. Waiting for Gung to mature in 8 years time is not an option due to the fact that females who do not breed between their 12-18 age classes are subject to ovarian tumours and all sorts of other reproductive disorders that preclude natural mating to occur.
Some of you Ozzies said that the Perth bull has some health issues that might make it difficult for him to travel. Is that true? If so, I pray that Taronga managers make up their mind quick and source a mature breeding bull from India, Malaysia or Thailand (Singapore is not an option as possibles are way to young).
I am glad our Ozzie friends are back after the holidays. I look forward to some lively discussions on zoo matters in Australia and New Zealand!!!
Given the promising situation in Melbourne, I agree it maybe better to use a different bull for both breeding age females at Taronga. Waiting for Gung to mature in 8 years time is not an option due to the fact that females who do not breed between their 12-18 age classes are subject to ovarian tumours and all sorts of other reproductive disorders that preclude natural mating to occur.
Some of you Ozzies said that the Perth bull has some health issues that might make it difficult for him to travel. Is that true? If so, I pray that Taronga managers make up their mind quick and source a mature breeding bull from India, Malaysia or Thailand (Singapore is not an option as possibles are way to young).
MARK
Well-Known Member
Perths Elephants
Couldn't Perth's bull be loaned to Taronga? Or send the Taronga females in turn, or even together, to Perth? It sounds like he's older than Gung and already mating- but isn't there a problem with the Perth females? Or they could do a temporary exchange of bulls with Taronga...[/QUOTE]
Grant, As far as I know only one of Perths cows is young enough to breed, (I think) the other young cow got very sick and did not make it, the older cow is past her breeding years now so Perth zoo would seem to have only the one male and one female in the running for breeding, I hope they could import a few more for their breeding program but who knows what their plans are.
Couldn't Perth's bull be loaned to Taronga? Or send the Taronga females in turn, or even together, to Perth? It sounds like he's older than Gung and already mating- but isn't there a problem with the Perth females? Or they could do a temporary exchange of bulls with Taronga...[/QUOTE]
Grant, As far as I know only one of Perths cows is young enough to breed, (I think) the other young cow got very sick and did not make it, the older cow is past her breeding years now so Perth zoo would seem to have only the one male and one female in the running for breeding, I hope they could import a few more for their breeding program but who knows what their plans are.
MARK
Well-Known Member
Given the promising situation in Melbourne, I agree it maybe better to use a different bull for both breeding age females at Taronga. Waiting for Gung to mature in 8 years time is not an option due to the fact that females who do not breed between their 12-18 age classes are subject to ovarian tumours and all sorts of other reproductive disorders that preclude natural mating to occur.
I agree with what you have said here, waiting for Gung to mature is not an option, because of the facts you have alreadly stated, I just feel Taronga should import a more mature bull (maye co-owned with Melbourne zoo), these cows appear to be a age where they should be breeding now.
I agree with what you have said here, waiting for Gung to mature is not an option, because of the facts you have alreadly stated, I just feel Taronga should import a more mature bull (maye co-owned with Melbourne zoo), these cows appear to be a age where they should be breeding now.
torie
Well-Known Member
i can imagine it would be really hard to move fully grown male elephants across the country every time some one wanted to breed. look at all the resources and time it took to move Taronga's elephants just from the airport to the zoo.
I wonder what the mental impact on the male elephants would be? Gung only just got settled in at Taronga and the introduction of a new male would take ages. some one may have already said why this wouldnt work but why cant they just transport the 'important' parts of the male elepahts? (sorry couldnt think of a better way to phrase that
)
I wonder what the mental impact on the male elephants would be? Gung only just got settled in at Taronga and the introduction of a new male would take ages. some one may have already said why this wouldnt work but why cant they just transport the 'important' parts of the male elepahts? (sorry couldnt think of a better way to phrase that
)