Melbourne Zoo Melbournes New Elephants.....

But pat- do we need to breed them, as we said before we are fcusing on SEA and other animals such as giraffe for display purposes only, if we aquired Jags for edu and display purposes only- wouldn't that be a good things. (provided all otehr programs are first accounted for and prioristsed)

I see only benifitrs, provided we do not take up reguional holding for otehr more important species- ie S. Leopards, and S. Tiger. We will be heling The AZa porgram by housing surplus animals. We gain edu value, as well as having a beutiful species in our region. We do not need to breed everything. If AZa is breeding, we can simply hold, and swap animals at there accord and req. . Of course we will manage this species porperly in line with AZA, i see only an upisde, and not how we will be repeating more of the same old.
 
Well Zoo_Boy, I tried to argue the same thing about brown bears with patrick and glyn in the thread "2007 in Review" in the General Forum (last posting 30/11/07). Have a look at it.

I couldn't convince them, and I had to pull out all my prejudices to stop them convincing me! :p
 
lol thoigh i like bears, the north america is no whre in any collection plans. lol i,love bears to, but i have to say they are very resource draining lol.They are good at agruging aint they lol!
 
if AZA were managing their program correctly for this species there should not be a surplus which needs offloading to regions not wanting to participate in the program.
i think any animal displayed well in a zoo has some sort of educational value, but an imaginative south american exhibit need not rely on jaguars. there is a beautiful and very charismatic range of birds, herpes, primates, invertbrates and amphibians to represent this eco-system already in managed, mainly viable programs accross both Australian and New Zealand zoos.
all of these species have an incredibly important role in the rainforest eco-system. you dont need an apex predator to represent this and certainly not one youre merely holding a handful of in the opposite side of the world to the programs base and potentially compromising valid programs for other big cats. this idea reeks of the mogo white lion bull ****.
Ara, one of the other imperatives behind the SEA wildlife focus is the opening up and strengthening of dialogue between Australias zoos and conservation organisations in our neighbouring Asian regions. fostering conservation initiatives and communication between zoos and relevent partners is a key goal of any breeding program and our strategic position (in a geogrpahic and diplomatic sense) makes Asia a sensible target area. that and the major loss of biodiversity and our long history of holding, managing and breeding key Asian endangered species in the country. think sumatran tigers, red pandas, orangutans all since the later 70s/early 80s.
back to jaguars, i think it is an irrational idea to suggest Australasian zoos should import and build new enclosures for a species purely for educational purposes especialy when breeding programs for some big cat species, namely snow leopard, are still not on a totally stable footing due to lack of regional participation and were phasing out our third small cat species (and an endangered one at that) because of lack of commitment and other reasons.
 
shut down- good points- though i still see there is value. Any program will have surplus animals- eg males - for example we do not have enough females for every male born, and unless embryo sex selection is avaliable in all species without me knowing- than there will always be some surplus animals.

thoughi do agree with your last ponit- with golden cats now being phased out due to lack of commitment. There is also many other problems with snow leopards- to explain holted breeding, and lack of regional support.

i still beleive that an animal can be managed on the otehr side of the world with other programs - look at dubbo- it houses 13 black rhinos that are actually all participants in the IRF and AZA programs- there is no 'real' australian program for black rhinos. Though i agree there si problems associated with programs across the globe, there can also be many beifits, such as education.

Now glyn, whilst as a zoo person, and animal lover- therefore repect- i do know all the beifits of the forgs and herps and birds in the amazon- but to the avergae peron- they are boring. Now you have to agree with me when i say that the aveage goer would think this, and a large spotted cat has much more appeal. So if you had a large spotted cat, in association with a hundred small birds and herps, as well as grogs- after all they are critically endgaered now days and desrve attention, people may be able t understand the r5ole all animals have in an ecosystem better, or more so not that, but actually pay attention to this fact that there is more than just jags!

Was that a good come abck?
 
if it took a jaguar to create some form of meaningful impression on zoo visitors then id argue the zoo wasnt designing wonderful enough enclosures. you truly could create an amazing south american zoo exhibit with the current species and possibly even borrow alligators.
heres some key species for any south american exhibit
spider, capuchin and squirrel monkeys
2 species of marmoset and 2 tamarin species
brazillian tapir
anaconda
alligator
poison arrow frogs
turtles
iguanas
fish
other herpes
macaws
conures
amazons
finches
tarantula
and possibly agouti, capybarra and anteater.
the rhino comparison is invalid, because essentially all our breeding program are an international extension and the recent inclusion of monarto strengthens regional participation. that program has become the equivelent of the taronga/melbourne EEP GORILLA outreach.
besides, if we had enough room and money to throw around to hold some bachelor jaguars, wouldnt you rather see it put into holding our surplus snow leopards which we arent creating at the moment because that program is stalling????
 
you could pretty much copy and paste the lower part of wild asia at taronga and turn it into a south american section in another part of the zoo.
stick anteaters in where chital deer should go, tapirs and capybarra mixed, anaconda instead of fishing cats, alligaotrs for otters, primates for primates and tamarins in where the aviaires are and coati for binturong subsitutue.
 
ha ha ha....

we've been babbling on about the same stuff years!!

i agree with glyn. we don't necessarily need jaguars and i certainly don't want them unless its a managed program. and right now we are struggling to develop those for the cats we do have.

which to be honest baffles me senseless since zoos all over the region are individually spending tens of millions on "mega exhibits"...

yet building a pissy little golden cat cage is out of the question. sorry, no "space" ya see.... :confused:
 
in fact probably the best comparison for a bachelor jaguar breeding program would be the indian rhino at WPZ.
multi million dollar exhibit holding a non breeding specimen surplus to an overseas program and compromising regional planning goals. ;)
 
there is reasons to the stalling.

Plus i also dnt know how well the aza jag program is.

whilst i agree with your list, and atcually that is waht taronga is creating for its exhibit i beelive (as mentioned in otehr forums) i beelive to truley represent an ecosytem you need carnis, as well as all othe rmeber of food chain and ecosystem. I do agree that taronga nor any other zoo will actaully do my idea, but the potential is there for it, with those benifits.

If we had other regional aprticipants for snow leopards we would have less surplus, as we could crate more pairs, i am going on my prsonal assumption, jaguars in aza zoos would be breeding quitre well, and be in greater numbers than snow leopards.

Plus aza would ahve greater number of jaguars and breeding anaimsl to create some surplus stock, than any snow leopard program we have. Any of our zoos could hold an extra animals or 2- i know mog does, and melbourne wit its mix of cages down there could spare some. and any new zealnd zoo joining the program would incorporate the fact of hosuing more than a apir of animals.

Plus i am not talking a whole nother programs here- not every zoo will house jags- only taronga at present has plans for a south american precint- therefore i am arguing for 2 aniamls for taronga zoo for example- not 20 animals for a viable program. therefore my argument is a single institute, if it can, and has put other regional prgrams ahead of it's own display needs, should eb able to import aniamls for educational display purposes, in a stricly non- breeding situation, and if thats not followed, arazpa does not grant import status for that single institue.
 
oh dont worry that shits me too patrick. i wouldnt give two shits if every Australian zoo held golden cats in some specialist but ****ing ugly breeding facility behind scenes and continued managing them until the day they could be put back into a mega million mega maxi exhibit. no grpahics, no fancy horticulture, viewing shelters etc. just an airy, densely planted aviary, holding pen and a a quarter of a days wages for a keeper for upkeep:)
as a matter of fact i think were becoming quite good at this argument, according to ARA were scary lol. i so should work for ARAZPA........ :)
 
I dont think wpz is - it already has formulated and managed rhino programs, and remeber it did have another animals ready for breeding, but we all know what happened. Animals do not come up everyday- back to my point- there may not even be surplus animals.
 
dammit. so the future of the south american rainforest lies in the hands of a potential jaguar exhibit in Sydney. i know we beat the other states in the elephant breeding stakes but why should we be the only ones who have to keep jaguars and thus be the only Australian state with the potential to save this eco-system.
crap
 
well its the only zoo to have a large scale planned south american precint. But we are making head way in south asian conservation with every zoo now having a exhibit, or future exhibit for SEA, and i think you will find most american zoos have o0r have planned large south american exhibits- again they can save south america, we will save SEA- there fore maybe actually getting somehwere by concenrrating on one thing, and not corssing over each other. !
 
and just because you have x amount of zoos wanting to participate in the breeding program doesnt mean all zoos are going to be actively breeding. most of our main zoos breeding sumatran tigers have a gap of between 5-ten years between litters and in between switch back to being non-breeding instituions or holders. some of our regional zoos have never even got the recomendation to breed, unless a crocodile hunter knocks on your door.
my point is that to create just one viable program drains the collective resources of almost every major Australian and New Zealand zoo. it has resulted in a good net sum of money renetering in-situ programs (see 21st CenturyTiger) but if other big cat breeding programs are going to have the same impact we need to strengthen cooperation, not denutt the process by importing spare animals of totally different species. which shouldnt really be spare because all AZA Jaguar pairings are based upon such fundamental things as where the offspring are going to end up. and i dont think Australian zoos are, or ever should be, an option.
 
i think thats why melbourne manages to still hold onto the best collection of species in the region - they have an aweful lot of "generic" type enclosures. i have no problem simple enclosures so long as the animals needs are met.

they are usually more versatile also. since the simple design. ie - a mesh fence and roof houses a much larger range of species effectively than mock rock walls and a water moat.

so what we need is more behind the scenes rows of generic exhibits.

coatis/red panda/tree kangaroos/koalas and binturongs all make do with a low wall with metal "grip proof plates" and climbing structures.

these same exhibits are also good for badgers, echidnas, procupines, wombats and agouti even though they don't use the trees.

dhole, wild dogs, tigers, maned wolves and lions all make do with a splay in fence.

an aviary will house just about anything small....marmosets, tree shrews, agouti, squirrels...

tapir and pygmy hippo have near identical requirements..

essentially what i'm saying is there are only a few "styles" of exhibits required to cover just about everything. if dubbo/melbourne/werribee did such on a largish scale....

...wallah! theres your "center for the reproduction of endangered species" (aka CRES) and another excuse for a behind the scenes guided tour (probably a good one at that too!).
 
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