Melbourne Zoo Melbourne's Thai elephants

gretak25

gretak25

Member
I visited Melbourne zoo recently and saw the elephants for the first time. I had very little previous knowledge or background but somehow found the whole experience a little weird. A Thai enclave with village and a group of asian elephants painted up like Christmas trees. I sort of felt like I was watching someone play with their poodles. Is there really a place for domesticated animals in zoos? :confused:
 
though in india etc, the animal are painted for cermonies, plus i guess for eles is a bit on enrichment, being painted, and alot of attention paid to them, it would be great.
 
well, for starters, you have to accept that these individuals were semi-domesticated in the first place, otherwise you wouldnt have seen them at melbourne zoo. they would still be in thailand somewhere, as none of the animals considered for import were allowed to be wild born.
i dont have a problem with the animals being painted up at all. the whole exhibit presents the animals within an approtriate cultural context. the fact is that these animals have a long history with human cultures in Asia, and their future in Asia is closely tied to humans too.
if melbourne wants to present this aspect of the animal, then go for it i'd say. not all the time, but during special festivals etc, i think its ok.
 
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And since it was recently Thai New Year, when traditionally, elephants are painted up in spectacular ceremonies, including, most probably, the Melbourne elephants in previous years, I don't have a problem with this at all.

I think it's a great way of raising awareness of other cultures, completely in context with the Thai elephants. Also a great way of engaging the Thai community.
 
and as zooboy said, for enrichment too! im sure the elephants enjoyed it, though i wouldnt know for sure. if i could do that, id probably ask brooke th leopard seal if she was lonely ;)
 
i dont know if they would reconised they are pianted pretty coulours, but enrichment in terms of keeper interaction, tools (paintbrushes) on the skin, and the public interaction would be very enriching
 
are melbourne zoo walking their elephant herd out and about around the trail exhibit yet?
does anyone know?
 
taronga has been exercising its animals out of the exhibit since at least march, when i visited taronga and was told by a vol as i waiting getting third degree sun burn so my italian friend could get a koala photo.
hmmmmmmmmm
 
I guess what I am trying to say is that I think it's a bit like climate change and we really do have to start doing things that work NOW. I wasn't really having a go at the decorations so much as wondering where all the trees were and wondering whether they wouldn't be doing what comes naturally in the warmth of our tropics in an open range breeding program.
 
gretak25 - i'm having a little bit of a hard time understanding where you are coming from with this one. in your first post you seem to be mostly concerned with the asthetic elements of the melbourne exhibit - the "thai village" and the fact that the elephants were decorated when you visited.

then you seem to have issue with the fact that the elephants are being played with like "poodles" and you are ask the question "do domesticated elephants really belong in zoos"

...so far you sound like your biggest issue is the cultural additions to the exhibit and the tameness of the exhibits inhabitants -

your second post then switches to indicating that your real issue was that you wanted more trees and question the climate of melbourne and whether it is sutable...

anyhow in answer to you questions -

i love the village, i think the elephant paddocks are too small as a result, but its the village is an excellent addition and the buildings are very tastefull and authentic. it reminds visitors of where the elephants come from - something crucial if your trying to drum up support for conservation projects as well as makes the entire experience something a little more than just staring at elephants. and just in case you were wondering - the actual facilities that are housed within the elephants buildings are 100% A-grade and world class.

painting the elephants doesn't hurt them whatsoever. they do it in asia all the time.

do domesticated elephants belong in zoos? i think the question here is "do ELEPHANTS belong in zoos?" certainly i don't think having aggressive, stressed wild caught elephants in the zoo is any benifit to the animal whatsoever or its species whatsoever. glyn said these are semi-domesticated animals. in truth, asian elephants are not technically domesticated, as humans have never really farmed them so much as captured wild-caught babies and trained them. these are trained elephants we havent altered their gentics in any way as we have with all other domesticated animals.

trees - elephants eat them. unless they are really big they push them over an eat them. what very few really big trees pre-existed within earmarked enclosure spaces, the zoo retained and protected. the rest of the spaces that surround the enclosures are jam-packed with vegetation..

so really if you expected the enclosures full of trees - you can forget it. the zoo can't even stop the elephants from eating all the grass! but dont worry, the elephants have plenty of shade, dead trees to scratch and its a bit of a fallacy that asian elephants live exclusively in teh jungle anyway. they are very much at home in open areas as well.

and lastly the climate. yes, melbourne certainly is very different to the animals home of thailand. but its not just necessarily cooler. its actually a lot drier and hotter in the summer as well. but not to worry either. the elephants have indoor climate controlled barns, with rubberised heated floors and sand - and can come in and out as they please at night. in fact, anyone who has been to southern africa or india or anywhere in the hills of asia can tell you - its not always hot in the tropics. it gets bloody cold in fact. and there are elephants there.

so in answer to those particular questions i disagree or am least concerned. though i do agree the animals deserve a more open-range type lifestyle..
 
Hey Patrick.

I don't believe animals 'deserve' open range I believe they need it to breed in an environment condusive to natural behaviour (how do you artifically insemminate an elephant let alone retrieve the necessary fluids?)

I concede that I was being ambiguous. I guess I was trying to keep my posts short and not too volatile.

I was under the impression that the $10 million or more spent by Melbourne and Taronga's enclosures was justified by species preservation. I think that would have bought a lot of land for them to do what comes naturally, including unassisted reproduction.

I wrote a coherent post and then accidently deleted it, so now I'm probably not being careful enough with my words, but ...

Zoo education is dubious at best. Ongoing and continued species loss is evidence enough that zoos and documentaries are not going to save species.

You now what Melbourne Zoo taught me. That I never wanted to see a deranged polar bear wearing foot marks into the concrete from endless repetitive pacing again. Though not as extreme, I got the same vibe from viewing the painted elephants, in a dust bowl, surrounded by a quaint village selling stuffed toy animals. The overwhelming emotion is that this is about us not the animals. Given that it is 2007 and the situation is dire I really found myself questioning the value of these displays in contributing anything at all to the continuation of the species.

The situation for Thai elephants is particularly dire so one would imagine that a multitude of births will be forthcoming from this collection of young healthy breeders. I guess we wil have to wait and see whether these enclosures generate offspring. That was my point Patrick. Time will tell.
 
I don't believe animals 'deserve' open range I believe they need it to breed in an environment condusive to natural behaviour
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i dont agree with your wording of 'deserve' all animals deserve as much room, and bst treatment as possible.
 
patrick said:
though i do agree the animals deserve a more open-range type lifestyle..
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Zoo Boy

I was quoting Patrick, a little old fashioned I guess but I'll get the hang of this yet.

I thought I made it clear that these animals more than deserve open range accommodation, it is absolutely essential to successful breeding. Trees to eat and destroy + healthy males and females = more elephants. Isn't that what we all want. I don't think captive breeding of elephants has got the numbers up! I don't think Thai's can bred them, what makes us think we can. I am just suggesting that if we want them to bred we give them the environment to do so. Assisted reproduction and elephants don't go very well together:eek: and the public should be well enough educated by now to understand that the welfare of each animal and its species is of vital importance to all of us. Are we educated enough to concede our own enjoyment for the "best possible" environment for the elephants.
 
breeding of elephants

as much as I think that open range zoos are better for elephants than "city" zoos , I wonder if this is really a constraint for elephant breeding .
Check out Springfield MO and Portland OR zoos in the USA .
Both appear to have bred elephants with limited problems .
What do they know that other zoos dont ?

I cant speak for other zoos , but whenever there are trees/stumps that need to come out at Auckland Zoo ( for new developments etc ) who do they call ?
No , not ghost busters . :p
They just let the elephants do what comes naturally , as part of their very varied behavioural enrichment programme .
 
we carnt really pass judgment either yet, as our stock still is only young, and there is only 1 pair viable at attempted breeding at this stage, and that is perth. lets have this convo is 5 years time, to find out whether we need inner city or open range.

in my opinion, they willbreed in melboure and pearth and taronga, but given time. though on hand, i still belive they would be better siuted, and able to exhibit more natural herd like behaviour with more space, and variety in life, drawing from nigels example above.
 
gretak25 said:
(how do you artifically insemminate an elephant let alone retrieve the necessary fluids?)QUOTE]

come again? have no idea what that means but if you want to know what i think its this... the reason our zoos tout AI so much is because i think they know its a safe option. for one i think they are worried that the bull might injure or kill one of their females. a situation that is more likely in very small, topographically varied enclosures with deep pools and hard surfaces such as fences and walls.


as for everything else you say i pretty much agree with you...
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elephants have been mating in the wild for centuries in topographically varied environments surrounded by rocks and water, they seem to get it right occassionally ;)
the emphasis on AI in North American and European programs, i believe, stemmed from the fact that species coordinators realised that both the elephant populations were moving toward a demographic bottleneck with very little breeding and there were relatively few bulls actually available. in addition, in the 1990s and 2000s when this technology was being developed
many zoos hadnt upgraded their facilities to cope with bulls.
in the last few years many things have changed. females have been consolidated into larger herds, many zoos have upgraded enclosures, cows have improved access to bulls and AI is becoming quite refined. i dont have an ethical problem with AI. i think the development of this technique is one of the biggest benifits for wild elephant management to come out of keeping elephants in zoos.
im not sure which yard melbourne will be introducing its girls to bong-su in, but at taronga i know the intention is to use the new bull facility. i dare say it is likely that at least someone with a bit of life sciences background had some say in the design of this facility which should result in a compound that is suitable for elephant introduction and breeding.
time will tell i suppose, but in summary, if you are attempting an elephant breeding program surely far better to do it in a fenced enclosure than a moated one. and just to get back to the 'open-range' alternative, fences would still have to be used in that case too ;)
 
i would also have to agree with nigle's remarks. so far, there has been no direct trend which shows elephants breed better in city or country zoos. what seems to be the trick is firstly, some space, but i still believe that whilst its nice to see elephants in a big enclosure a smaller enclosure with lots of stimuli and an opportunity to go for walks is just as good.
secondly, social oppotunities. at the moment, no open-range zoo in australia has the visitation to pay for a decent sized herd of these elephants. its not about money, but you try convincing tax payers and governments to subsidise a breeding program for a species that comparatively fewer people get to see.
at least in the city zoos, there is enough money to both cover resources and a bit left over for in-situ conservation. i believe that in the future both melbourne and taronga would do well to expand their exhibits (by taking over the giraffe exhibit at melbourne, and 'dog row' at taronga) but in the mean time the elephants are doing well.
as for asking whether an elephants place is a dusty exhibit in melbourne, well, i cant see how thats any worse than the streets of bangkok. im sorry, but i cant. a koala living in a zoo in san diego isnt neccesarily worse off than one surrounded by a new housing subdivision in Australia just because it isnt in its range nation.
 
I don't know guys. I concede my ignorance, but the more I cruise around the internet the more I find stuff to verify my point of view that breeding is more successful in a more natural environment and without human interference.

One of the the best breeders is Motek in Israel and he does it all alone.

On a quick obersvation it seems that the larger the herd the higher the birth rate. That's too logical!

Births are occurring but even Oregon Zoo concedes that the current birth rate can not sustain the captive population of U.S.A.

AI is relatively new, very expensive and not particulary productive.

All very complex if you choose it to be but I just reckon the answer is under our noses, put the money into land and elephants and forget the technology and wages.
 
gretak once again i find it hard to understand were you are going with this and keep finding what appears to me to be contradictions in your arguments.

you see, you consistantly knock zoos ability to provide for elephants. you mention that even the oregon zoo cant breed enough (even though the oregon zoo does indeed have more females = males, as you like to put it), that even the thai's cant breed them (which is rediculously untrue by the way) and that we should not bother about "wages" (i assume you mean keepers)...

on the other hand you mention an israeli zoo elephant as an example of success in breeding elephants and suggest that if we should breed elephants we should give them the environment to do so...

hmmmm - okay, you think we should try and breed elephants. but that we shouldn't keep them in a zoo...we should do it in the right environment... (stop me if i'm on the wrong track)....we shouldn't bother about trying to educate the public because its fruitless exercise... but we can offset the lack on incoming ticket sale revenue by having no keepers and paying no wages....which shouldn't be a problem because we want natural breedings and no AI anyway. the elephants will eat "trees" and fend for themselves..

...hold on a moment gretak - now i get it!!! you think we should release a herd of elephants into the queensland bush!!!

it would be a brilliantly original idea but unfortunately its been suggested here on the forum before....

...oh and its also the dumbest, most nonsensical and uneducated idea i have ever heard.

but surely you are no dummy! you must instead be having just a little trouble expressing yourself. i suggest you ask yourself this; "am i anti-elephants in captivity per se?" OR "do i think elephants belong in open range zoos only?"

if your anti elephants-in-zoos, well i for one am not going to argue with you on that. i might suggest that you extened those beliefs to some other aniamls that fare equally as badly in zoos - but thats your belief and in my view you could probably whip up a few valid points.

if instead you are simply anti-elephants in city zoos, then you and i see eye to eye - however i should point out a few things. in open range zoos elephants still need keepers and thus wages still need to be spent. exhibits will still cost millions and i completely disagree that immersion exhibits displaying cutural elements from the animals home country are of no educational value. if all you want is an elephant breeding facility then why do it here in australia? the thais, despite what you think (and indians and sri lankans) are actually very good at breeding elephants in captivity. where do you think "melbournes Thai elephants" came from. it wasn't straight out of the jungle i can assure you that. no there are many breeding herds of captive elephants in asia - there is no need to bring them here. instead it would be better to finacially support these breeding facilities in asia (though whats the point if theres no jungle left for them and as you point out you don't believe that documentaries or education is going to save elephants anyway.....)

anyway gretak - unless you can successfully express what exactly it is your suggesting we do i think you should have a think about these things. and i'm not intentionally being nasty - i'm quite serious. have a think hard about what it REALLY is you want for those elephants and what your motivations behind those thoughts are..
 
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