Melbourne Zoo Melbourne's Thai elephants

AI or no AI

If endangered animals in zoos breed without any help from modern technology , that is great -- I wish that they all would do just like the chimpamzees and baboons at Wellington Zoo ( breed as if there is no tomorrow ! )
Unfortunately , this is wishful thinking by anyone that thinks that way .
Zoos are trying to prevent species from dying out ( usually due to human intervention ) --- some zoos do better than others .
If the zoos decide to use AI or other technology to induce pregnancies , and maybe even to prevent extinctions .... so be it . I am sure most zoos would prefer to leave it to the animals themselves if it were possible , but if the zoo only holds females of a species ( Aucklands elephants as a classic example ) , there is no chance that either elephant will concieve by natural means .

I personally wish that Auckland Zoo will take some action here and use AI , but trying to get useful information from them of late is a fruitless task .

I also personally feel that elephants are better suited to living in open range zoos rather than city zoos , but if the city zoos can look after all the elephants needs ( including psychological ones ) it is better than elephants becoming extinct in the wild . .......
 
And the one big thing (if you'll pardon the pun) that you seem to be forgetting, is how much easier is it to move a few straws full of refrigerated elephant semen around the country to AI a cow in another zoo, rather than transporting an adult elephant for mating? AI is not done simply becuase the animals won't breed, it's very often a practical solution.
 
i haven't really got a prolem with it. i personally couldn't understand why australian zoos were placing so much emphasis on it when each zoo held a fertile bull and facilities for breeding. i was thinking "surely you'll only bother if the elephants cant get it together themselves". then i thought of something else - somthing i mentioned earlier and by all means is pure speculation. what if it was for the cow elephants safety? yes glyn in the wild there is varied topography rocks and deep pools. but in the wild the nearest slope, river or boulder isn't necessarily a few meters away from our courting elephants. after hearing about bong-su last interaction with kapah in the pool, and seeing a couple too many youtube videos of captive elephants killing ramming other elephants to death against walls (and i don't recommend looking it up) i thought it was a very real possibilty we had a nasty accident over here. and what the repercussions of such an incident are..

i think provided the zoos with bulls are very cautious, which i'm sure they will be, we may as well let them try to actually ENJOY making babies first..

but all in all its not something that much bothers me..
 
taronga zoo has started conditioing its cow elephants to accept the AI procedure.
i take a bit of a different view to AI. the way i see it is this....for a long time zoos have been bad at breeding elephants. but theyre getting better. and the ironic thing is that zoos were so bad at breeding elephants that ultimately elephants will probably end up with one of the most comprehensive assisted reproduction knowledge bases of any species, which in turn poses more real benifits for wild populations.
even if the world zoo herd can become self-sustaining through a combination of natural breeding and AI, its unlikely that zoo-bred calves will return to Asia. on the other hand, id say there is a very real possibility of applying zoo-developed technology to wild animals.
 
when you look at the cost of transporting a single rhino or elephant, and when you consider how much people on this forum, myself included, would like to see zoos in a position to 'give' more back to in-situ conservation, cant anyone see the value in using AI?
 
.... which was also part of my reason to write my last piece about AI -- I also find it hard to follow some of Gretaks lines of thought .....

Which is more expensive --- transporting elephants or transporting elephant semen ?
Personally I wish that the new elephants in Australian zoos will do what should come naturally and breed without technological intervention .
But we should also use the technology that we have , if that is what it takes to prevent species from dying out . If that means AI , so be it .
Otherwise zoos will be seen as just collections of animals , and conservation and preservation will just go out the window .
 
1. To prevent the extinction of elephants, it is necessary to protect their habitat and get poaching under control. AI in zoo elephants doesn´t help the wild population at all!!

2. To prevent the extinction of the zoo population, AI is unnecessary. Look at the elephant breeding programs in Europe (for both specis!) and you will see that elephants breed very well naturally, even in city zoos and small enclosures. The elephant populations in Europe will be self-sustaining in the near future. The asian elephant population in the USA has probably reached the point of no return without imports because the big majority of females is too old for breeding. AI can`t solve this problem.

3. AI in Australia is only necessary because of bad management decisions. Melbourne has a fertile adult bull so where is the need for AI? Taronga has the need for AI because they made the choice to import two females of breeding age and a male who is too young to breed in the next years. Their choice. Regarding Perth Zoo, the bull mates the female naturally. I don`t understand why they tried AI at all. What can AI do that natural mating can`t?

4. AI is not cheap at all, especially not if performed in Australia. The vets who can do this procedure must come from Germany or the USA, and they must bring all their equipment with them. The hole thing is a logistic nightmare - the vets must arrive at exactly the right time when the female is cycling, and the procedure will fail if the semen is of bad quality (that happens relatively often - one day semen quality good, next day bad), or if the bull comes in musth and refuses to cooperate in the procedure. AI is cheaper then transporting an elephant once, but if you take into consideration that it can fail because of semen issues and that 2, 3 or even more attempts can be necessary before getting the female pregnant, then AI is no permanent solution for breeding elephants, espcially not if there is more then one female. Moving elephants ONCE to get them into a position where they can breed naturally for the next decades should be the method of choice if you ask me.
If you look at AI attempts in European and US zoos, you will see that it is usually the egoism of the zoo that made it necessary, because too often the zoos refuse to send their females (permanently) to a zoo which can house a bull. No, the zoos want to keep their young females and are not willingly to invest into a bull facility! In Europe, the zoos of Dresden and Usti are prime examples for this.

5. Natural breeding is a very important part of elephant behavoir and it is enrichment, while AI is an invasive procedure for which the females need to stand without moving for hours, with a hose and thze vet`s arm in their anus and surrounded by strange people. Don`t tell me that this is fun for any animal.

6. Elephants breed well naturally in small, inadequate enclosures and I guess they will do so in Australia too. But nevertheless the lack of space (and the enclosure in Taronga with 2000 m² for 5 elephants + their future offspring can not be named spacious at all!!) limits the enrichment possibilities and will cause boredom and stereotypic behavoir. And lack of exercise which can cause serious health problems. I don`t think that walking elephants in the zoo is an alternative because it can`t be done with the (adult) bull and it might become impossible in the future with some of the females in cases of agressions against the keepers.

And - where will the australian zoos keep the calves they hope to breed? Neither Melbourne nor Taronga has the barn space to double the size of its elephant herds. Each female can have one offspring and then the barn is full. What will happen if they breed a number of males? Which other zoos in Australia are willingly to take additional bull elephants?
 
yassa, for startes, taronga zoo will soon be expanding its elephants facilities again, this time for the bull, which will effectively double the space avaiable for management. with enough accomodation for two bulls, i imagine in the future natural breeding will become even more practical.
secondly, a significant ammount of money has been invested in upgrading elephant facilities at Western Plains Zoo, the sister property. Australia Zoo in QLD has invested heavily in their elephant facility, and so too perth and of course Melbourne with Monarto Zoo indicating long-term participation.
the Australasian region could effectively accomodate a doubling of the elephant population within 4-5 years-dependent. this would involve some reshuffling and perhaps a restructure of the elephant herds, but thats no different to whats already happening in europe.
i imagine in the future, from the nucleus of 11 potential breeding animals the Australasian region will have a relatively self-sustaining population of these animals. finally, given the heavy investment in the program, regional cooperation and the development more than a decade ago of a species managment plan, dont you think that if, all goes well, this region actually, on a smaller scale actually has a better chance of getting things right than the US? it has a coparatively larger population, but the demographic structure of that population is way mor dire than ours. and at least at the moment, all our cows, or as soon as Gung at Taronga matures, with breeding potential, will have permanent access to a breeding male. thats gotta count for something ;)
 
I hope you are right - I have been told in Monarto that they would like to exhibit elephants again, but have absoluetly no money to make this plan reality. Regarding Australia Zoo, their facility can`t hold bulls, but at least they have the money to build a bull enclosure if surplus bulls should become availible in Melbourne and Taronga.
 
monarto, like most of our open-range zoos has encountered funding shortfalls. thats no secret.
australia zoo has both the exhibit, the space, and the money. it also now has the experience, which it lacks, for say sumatran rhino, lol. if australia zoo wanted to wait for an australian-bred bull, they could have up to ten years up their sleave.
i, for one, dont think theyll wait that long. i think that australia zoo will be looking to source new animals from OS in the future, within 5-8 years. im only guessing, but i imagine perth, and depending on their long-term consideration on elephants, auckland too may also be in the same boat, so to speak
 
I am glad other people agree AI is a good tool. This does not mean it should be used all the time. If the apropriate male is avaliable it is the easier and cheaper alternative and then there would be no reason for AI.

In the future it would also be good to intriduce new unrelated animals through AI rather than the costly import.

I also agree with Yassa that natural is best but AI will have its place. Some of the things Yassa said I dont agree with though. I have done a cattle AI course and I am sure elephants would not be much different, posably easier as everything is bigger. I dont think bringing people form overseas would be necessary as AI is not that dificult. Semen quality is easily cheacked and if it is colected in good condition and handled and stored corectly will not deteriate for a long period. As for animls standing in crushes for long periods for AI I also disagree. It is a simple and quick procedure.
 
the only prob is is carnt be frozen and reamin viable, therefore can not be stored for export, needs to ne an immediate transaction, as in eg, from elephnat to plane, to an oz zoo, quick as possible- lol 'while still warm'
 
The anatomy of an elephant is VERY different from cattle and AI in elephants is completely different from AI in cattle. At the moment there are only two vet teams in the world which have the knowledge and equipment to do Ai in elephants, one team is from Germany and one in the USA. The german team did the AI in Perth. Elephant sperm can`t be stored, it must be fresh, I think 12 hours or so is the maximum time! I have seen a couple of videos from AI in female elephants and it is a procedure that around two hours - at least. In free contact the elephants often have to stand on podests with all 4 legs so that they can`t move to attack the vets without stepping off the podests first. Elpehants are usually not comfortable in the presence of strangers, another big difference to cattle.
 
Some smaller zoos which keep female elephants lack the facilities or expertise to keep a bull elephant safely- and may not want to take the risk either. For these, if they have females still young enough to breed, AI could be an important tool.
 
even if ai is utilised, i belive the presence of a bull would be important for the social factor in captivity. even a bull around the corner, or seeing once ina a while, would give the females a better sense of mind, does that make sense? lol
 
wait for me......

you nasty people! starting an elephant debate without ME!!

yassa - you said "AI in zoo populations wont help the wild population at all". i see where your going with this but actually i think AI in zoo elephants - or more specifically in their wild counterparts - is the only real thing captive animals can offer their wild counterparts. since virtually every animal on the planet is endangered or on its way nowdays (remember when it was just pandas and black-footed ferrets - dem da days...) we are going to see more and more of a deterioration of genetic diversity in wild animals. of course it depends on the species, but zoo animals just don't take too well to going back to the wild. we may never see a melbourne zoo elephant return to thailand, but in the far future we may see a melbourne bred bull used to inseminate cows in a wild herd. of course this would rely on zoos not only mastering the art of AI first, but also having a large genetically healthy captive population. as it stands (there are of course exceptions) zoos can't offer many wild animals either at this time.

what you say about AI being needed only because of bad management decisions is well, pretty damn true. though i haven't argued much against AI on the forum i certainly have argued myself silly over dumbarse decisions the zoos have made regarding their elephants. suffice to say, without going into it - i agree with much of what you say on this point and if these issues were dealt with differently their would be far less dependace on AI...

glyn - taronga will be expanding their facilities, but only just enough to be able to keep their bull. even if what you say is correct - that the facilities can house a second bull (and assuming that the animal is compatable with its father) what happens if more than on male calf is born? in fact what happens if all of tarongas four female elephants have calves, in fact multiple calves? (which is no doubt the goal right?)...

its true their is knowhere for them - animals will be, as you suggest moved to other zoos and no doubt this will include females something i'm very much against - partly becuse of ethical issues and partly becuse the keepers are all to happy to crap on every time i visit about building a multi-generational, RELATED herd and yet splitting mother daughter bonds (some of the strongest threads in the fabric of elphantine society...:)) goes radically against that very principle. if the zoos breeding programs are as successful as they claim they will be it wont be long before we start seeing female groups split up due to issues arising from lack of space at the zoos (be it for more females or unrelated bulls)..

and on the prospect of more zoos wanting elephants - monarto at this stage is listing africans (which is wonderfully helpful) and i was very supprised to hear some time ago from zoopro that dubbo has not actually made a species commitment at this stage either way!!!

monty - its true AI in cattle is nothing like AI in elephants. i have read about the procedure and it is a very invasive and difficult...

zooboy - "carnt" is spelt c-a-n-'-t (and kool is with a "c") and can you never talk of warm elephant jizz on this forum ever again please..

patrick - here ya go again mate. chill out, who cares and calm down. heres an idea - read a different thread, who knows maybe "red river hogs in the UK" might actually be interesting? or maybe do some work for a change. in any event your repeating yourself dude and to be honest this whole zoo obession of yours has got me worried. if your so pasionate about it then why didn't you become a zookeeper or a scientist....your no expert so stop pretending you are!!
 
lol pat
this debate is perpetual, but once again ill back the zoos ;)
we arent yet at the decision making stage about where to send baby elephants, obviously, and we have lots of time for other zoos to decide whether theyre commiting or not.
i imagine, one future option might be not to split mothers/daughters but instead seperate out the unrelated cows. taronga might end up with just pornthip, and say thong dee, and their two calves....whilst pak boon and tang mo might go somewhere else, calves in tow. whilst there will obviously b a huge push to breed all animals, the age strucutre of tarongas herd means that its limited to breeding 2 of 4 cows for the next few years, a deliberate decision to get a multiple age herd. this staggering of ages means the zoos will be able to stagger the years between births. and of course, the captive management plan will make breeding recomendations based on space, etc, just as i does with all managed species in the region.
im sure too, that surplus bulls could be sent overseas, particularly to the USA. and both melbourne and taronga zoo havent yet entirely landlocked their elephant displays. there is still room for both zoos to further expand exhibits should the need/opportunity arise.
be optimistic man, besides its friday ;) and dont tell me you wouldnt be overjoyed if bong su managed to get all 3 elephants knocked up soon. and dont pick on me for spelling, either ;) have a good weekend
 
Surplus australia born bulls could be sent overseas? Sorry, forget it - the USA and Europe already have problems placing the bull calves born in their OWN countries! And these problems will only grow in the next 10 years.

Patrick - I don`t think Ai in wild elephants will ever be possible, because it requires monitoring the cycle of the female for weeks (if not months) to determine the right moment. Getting daily blood or urine samples from wild elephants is impossible.
 
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