Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
I know it's mean, but Culling is allowed!!!
Melbourne Zoo Melbourne's Thai elephants
- Thread starter gretak25
- Start date
Zooboy- you are absolutely on the ball here. There is some evidence(don't ask me for references) that male calves born without the presence of a bull in the group do not become fully normally socialised. Something to do with not having access to the scents and smells of other male elephants. females which never meet a bull must also be having less than a fully normal existence.
yassa - good point. gotta admit though, my answer did at least sound clever though, right?
withered hornybill - what on earth does culling have to do with the price of elephant fish?
grant - interesting. i suppose wild herd have mature bulls come and go over a young males calfhood and that there is always a contingent of immature males hanging around too. it doesn't supprise me that it would be important for not only young males, but all young elephants to have exposure to a range of elephant behaviours (including breeding) to learn what to do.
withered hornybill - what on earth does culling have to do with the price of elephant fish?
grant - interesting. i suppose wild herd have mature bulls come and go over a young males calfhood and that there is always a contingent of immature males hanging around too. it doesn't supprise me that it would be important for not only young males, but all young elephants to have exposure to a range of elephant behaviours (including breeding) to learn what to do.
Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
No, I was talking about the amount of male elephants in zoos and if there are too many.
forget it??? yassa, neither of us can see 15 years into the future. by that stage maybe, yes, bull elephants will be completely done away with, but for now, i believe there is no reason why this species will not be managed in accordance with an international program in a manner similar to any other species.
AI might be perfected within a decade. it could still be attempted with wild animals, if things were getting bad enough to contemplate that kind of action wild herds could always be held temporarily, monitored and then inseminated. and if what grant said about normal bull development i cannot see bull elephants being completely done away with. i imagine that any large, slow breeding animal like this could be managed to maximise holding space, reduce surplus etc.
here in australia were hardly 'at capacity', if we were to reach this stage im sure zoo managers could simply stall breeding. but im equally sure that at some point down the track elephants will be transported throughout western zoos with the sort of frequnecy normally seen with animals like white rhinos, etc
AI might be perfected within a decade. it could still be attempted with wild animals, if things were getting bad enough to contemplate that kind of action wild herds could always be held temporarily, monitored and then inseminated. and if what grant said about normal bull development i cannot see bull elephants being completely done away with. i imagine that any large, slow breeding animal like this could be managed to maximise holding space, reduce surplus etc.
here in australia were hardly 'at capacity', if we were to reach this stage im sure zoo managers could simply stall breeding. but im equally sure that at some point down the track elephants will be transported throughout western zoos with the sort of frequnecy normally seen with animals like white rhinos, etc
I am not sure if there is a misunderstanding, what I wanted to express is that there is already a big problem with young surplus bull elephants in Europe and in the USA (although worse in Europe because of much better breeding sucess). This means placing surplus australian born bulls in oversea zoos will not be an option because these zoos don`t even have enough space for their own bull calves, and the problem of surplus bulls gets worse every year! It is not a problem of transport or logistics - adult bulls are already moved freuquently in Europe. I do hope that Australia and Europe will exchange young bulls one day to improve genetics but an exchange would not reduce the number of bulls Australia nor Europe.
Stalling - or at least reducing - breeding is probably something that will happen in Europe in the next 10 or 15 years (maybe even earlier), but the big problem with elephants is that you reach capacity for bulls much faster then for females. In fact, european zoos ARE already at capacity regarding young bulls or at least very close to that point, but there is still a big need for female elephants - the female population is not self-sustaining yet and will never be if breeding is reduced now, which would be necessary to solve the surplus bull problem.
Interestingly, AI produces far more bull calves then females - 80 or more % of the AI calves are male. I don`t know if this is casuality or if the stress for the female elephant influences the gender of the calf. There are some species where a relation between stress and the birth of male calves has been proven.
Stalling - or at least reducing - breeding is probably something that will happen in Europe in the next 10 or 15 years (maybe even earlier), but the big problem with elephants is that you reach capacity for bulls much faster then for females. In fact, european zoos ARE already at capacity regarding young bulls or at least very close to that point, but there is still a big need for female elephants - the female population is not self-sustaining yet and will never be if breeding is reduced now, which would be necessary to solve the surplus bull problem.
Interestingly, AI produces far more bull calves then females - 80 or more % of the AI calves are male. I don`t know if this is casuality or if the stress for the female elephant influences the gender of the calf. There are some species where a relation between stress and the birth of male calves has been proven.
Yes, that's about it. What's interesting is that it seems that exposure to males(or bull scent in Urine etc) may stimulate the development of testosterone or other hormones that make a bull calf truly 'a male' i.e. he has to experience the scent of males to become a real male himself.
Interestingly, the very first Asian elephant born in the UK (it was at you know where) grew up in a group of females after the only bull- his father- escaped and was shot dead before his birth. The calf was called 'Jubilee' and when fullygrown he was more like a cow elephant than a normal bull (no tusks, no powerful head and forequarters etc) He never showed much interest in females either. One example like this is not sufficient for proof, but it is tempting to speculate...
In Europe more young bulls are nowadays being sent into 'batchelor groups' like male gorillas- the two species experience similar difficulties with housing the surplus males... and restrictions on breeding wil be a likely outcome of this. Australian zoos will not have to face this problem for many years to come and have open- range zoos that could perhaps take the excess.
gretak25
Member
grantsmb
I'd hope that it could be the other way around. That herds would be accommodated more naturally at Dubbo and Werribee with those herds supplying animals for the city zoos. I think that's what they do at San Diego.
Yassa
Is the oversupply of bulls about space restrictions and would open range zoos play any role in alleviating this problem?
I'd hope that it could be the other way around. That herds would be accommodated more naturally at Dubbo and Werribee with those herds supplying animals for the city zoos. I think that's what they do at San Diego.
Yassa
Is the oversupply of bulls about space restrictions and would open range zoos play any role in alleviating this problem?
san diego don't do that. last i read san diego keeps two asian and an african female on display together at the zoo despite the fact they have herds of both species at t he WAP. there may be a good reason why the have never integrated, but remeber the WAP did also recently send its older africans to a sad fate in chicago so to be able to import wild-caught animals from zimbabwe. i can't help but think that there might be a few animals there getting a rough deal for no good reason...
hornbill - surplus culling of bull elephants in zoos? somehow i don't think thats going to ever happen..
hornbill - surplus culling of bull elephants in zoos? somehow i don't think thats going to ever happen..
Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want it to happen. It's a last resort. I'm not a violent hornbil...Person!!!
greta, no offense, but the suggesion that whole herds of asian elephants could be kept and breeding at western plains zoo to keep taronga stocked is ridiculous. for a whole myriad of reasons, not least the cost. do you know where dubbo is? do you know how many tourists go there, and do you know how much it costs to feed an elephant? get the calculator out.
ill call a spade a spade. like it or not, if taronga didnt import its 5 elephants last november, melbourne wouldnt have had either. the only zoo in the country at the moment who is a financial situation strong enough to shoulder the burden of establishing a costly program like this and making some sort of return on it is sydney. so, if for the short term that means keeping elephants in sydney, and now melbourne, well so be it.
im afriad its a case of whether youd like elephants in australia at all? do you think elephants in asia will get anything at all out of them being here? the answer is yes, they have, and will, and certainly it didnt hurt taking them out. are our elephants in melbourne and sydney suffering? no. and they mightnt be roaming the rainforests, but they arent wandering the streets of bangkok either, which isnt neccesarily better for them just because its in thailand.
and finally, if there were no asian elephants in australian zoos, what animals would there be? dont say okapis, or dugongs, or flamingos.
i mean take your pick from the 30 or so exotic species there are left to choose from and come up with a species that'll keep the people coming through the gates, and by virtue of it being on the other side of that fence result in some sort of meaningful consevation.
zoos do valuable work, and its a corner ill argue any day. i consider myself alot more eco-centric than your average every day australian, and its a love of nature that zoos first inspired.
but if they are to remain in a position where they can do that, they need animals to get people through the gates. this doesnt equal exploitation in my eyes(a stupid considering our zoos are non-commercial institutions). so howd i get from your post to this? i guess it because animals like elephants seem to best epitomise the whole zoo debate.
ill call a spade a spade. like it or not, if taronga didnt import its 5 elephants last november, melbourne wouldnt have had either. the only zoo in the country at the moment who is a financial situation strong enough to shoulder the burden of establishing a costly program like this and making some sort of return on it is sydney. so, if for the short term that means keeping elephants in sydney, and now melbourne, well so be it.
im afriad its a case of whether youd like elephants in australia at all? do you think elephants in asia will get anything at all out of them being here? the answer is yes, they have, and will, and certainly it didnt hurt taking them out. are our elephants in melbourne and sydney suffering? no. and they mightnt be roaming the rainforests, but they arent wandering the streets of bangkok either, which isnt neccesarily better for them just because its in thailand.
and finally, if there were no asian elephants in australian zoos, what animals would there be? dont say okapis, or dugongs, or flamingos.
i mean take your pick from the 30 or so exotic species there are left to choose from and come up with a species that'll keep the people coming through the gates, and by virtue of it being on the other side of that fence result in some sort of meaningful consevation.
zoos do valuable work, and its a corner ill argue any day. i consider myself alot more eco-centric than your average every day australian, and its a love of nature that zoos first inspired.
but if they are to remain in a position where they can do that, they need animals to get people through the gates. this doesnt equal exploitation in my eyes(a stupid considering our zoos are non-commercial institutions). so howd i get from your post to this? i guess it because animals like elephants seem to best epitomise the whole zoo debate.
No, that would produce, quite rightly, massive criticism of any zoo involved in such practice, plus a major backlash against zoos generally. I'm sure before that stage is reached, zoos will be placing their elephants on contraception or genetically manipulating the sex of calves to produce females, once creating all male groups has stopped being a viable option when 'saturation point' is reached..
As I said previously, I believe the problem of surplus males in zoos is similar to that for gorillas and the options are similar too.
As far as whether open range or urban zoos hold the breeding animals, that's really up to the zoos concerned, but where a zoo has a city and an open range location at its disposal, one can be used to house the surplus. But there could be handling problems in keeping numbers of mature bulls in the future...
dont call it culling, but selective euthanasia. with such an endangered species, with limited resoursces, euthanasia in australia, may in years to come, be an ffective managment tool. such as with gorrillas, no plaaces in region for males, so at birth, males can be culled. this is done at selectiove times, such as straight after birth, as to mimic wild situations, often youung dont survive. but more examples are wth out hoofstock,, we are over run with geriatric animals, and they take up valuable places in region. these animals are often way past age where they would naturally survive in wild. so before age related illness sets in euthanasia is done. this frees up space for new stock, plus elimintates further suffering with age re;lated illness.
now this aint the be all and end all solution, far from it, i my self have criticised it, but it would be an option in captive opoulattions as an effective management tools. it would be better used in co-op with other forms such finding places in region for stock and anmals- such as alinta holding excess p. horse, and other zoos yholding only b groups of rhino. the best way to over come wuld be sex selection for these szpecies, reseqarch is currently under way on using it for gorrillas, and eventually would be best for elephnats to have all female offspring.
the euthansai debate will have critics, especially with high profile animals such as elephants, rhino and gorrilla, but it has been used in zoos for mnay years, such as with kangaroos, many zoos can not have excess males, as it is to much trouble for zoos own group, but its hard to find places in region for excess males. so at birth sometimes, it is effective to euthanise the joey.
please debate me on this one, cause i my elf dont like euthanasia, buit is a very effective mangamet tool,especially with not so mny regional places
now this aint the be all and end all solution, far from it, i my self have criticised it, but it would be an option in captive opoulattions as an effective management tools. it would be better used in co-op with other forms such finding places in region for stock and anmals- such as alinta holding excess p. horse, and other zoos yholding only b groups of rhino. the best way to over come wuld be sex selection for these szpecies, reseqarch is currently under way on using it for gorrillas, and eventually would be best for elephnats to have all female offspring.
the euthansai debate will have critics, especially with high profile animals such as elephants, rhino and gorrilla, but it has been used in zoos for mnay years, such as with kangaroos, many zoos can not have excess males, as it is to much trouble for zoos own group, but its hard to find places in region for excess males. so at birth sometimes, it is effective to euthanise the joey.
please debate me on this one, cause i my elf dont like euthanasia, buit is a very effective mangamet tool,especially with not so mny regional places
zooboy - i am gobsmacked that the boy who reguarly makes posts on this forum with such titles as "RIP cheri" and happily reminds us not to get sidetracked thinking about the rhino breeding program when we should instead be mourning kua's (or however its spelt) death, can have, despite noting their personal opposition, such a casual attitude to euthanasia as a population management tool.
okay so yes, i think any of us that state that we don't place a value on an animals life based soley on its rarity, beauty, or our own personal preferances, is a liar. the vast majority of us here have all happily expressed our fondness of beef - yet how many of us would eat a whale or an elephant?
but i think if zoos need to resort to "destroying" surplus endangered and exotic animals, to free up space, then it really only exposes how redicuously tokenistic and flawed their breeding programs are.
rightfully so, it strips the zoo of credibility in my opinion and its really unecessary.
once again, its a lack of space thats the problem and if zoos want to breed animals that will be othersise difficult to place outside their own walls - then they need to look at wether or not they have a right to keep them themselves..
okay so yes, i think any of us that state that we don't place a value on an animals life based soley on its rarity, beauty, or our own personal preferances, is a liar. the vast majority of us here have all happily expressed our fondness of beef - yet how many of us would eat a whale or an elephant?
but i think if zoos need to resort to "destroying" surplus endangered and exotic animals, to free up space, then it really only exposes how redicuously tokenistic and flawed their breeding programs are.
rightfully so, it strips the zoo of credibility in my opinion and its really unecessary.
once again, its a lack of space thats the problem and if zoos want to breed animals that will be othersise difficult to place outside their own walls - then they need to look at wether or not they have a right to keep them themselves..
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not as rediculous as thinking that it will work better the other way round glyn.
oh ya know dude.
i understand that we don't all see eye-to-eye and certainly, you and i and everyone else on this forum have been well and truly over this one a billion times and i for one am a bit over it all.
anyhow, to avoid a silly argument i'm going to have a shot at better articulating your argument for you and prempting what you will next say to me should i take this one up with you..(and by no means am i implying you are inarticulate glyn - i particuarly like the use of the word "myriad" in an earlier post
)
its not about elephants at taronga making more money than elephants at dubbo per se. currently both zoos house them and no doubt will continue to. and its not about a large group of elephants vs a small group or "new" thai elephants vs elderly zoo veteran elephants. my guess is neither pull more crowds than the other (i can't prove this but i bet TOTE pulled more visitors when it first opened with just two elephants than it did when the thai girls arrived).
its about the revenue-raising potential a baby elephant has. and on this glyn you are 100% correct. if hypothetically both dubbo and taronga zoo had a baby elephant born tomorrow - it would be taronga that would make the lions share of the money, and it would be A LOT.
so if, as suggested dubbo bred the elephants and taronga just held bulls or old animals, its true the NSW zoo board would be missing out on making money on their biggest investment.
werribee on the otherhand, due to its close proximity to melbourne city, should it have a baby elephant could make a sizable contribution (so long as melbourne did not also have a baby elephant).
but in the end none of that much matters for the elephants does it. i haven't visited dubbo, but odds are i would be no more impressed with their elephant exhibit than i would tarongas. for me its never been that open-range zoos are better for elephants than city zoos full stop. its about potential. space offers more potential. city zoos can never offer much more than what you see there today.
i understand that we don't all see eye-to-eye and certainly, you and i and everyone else on this forum have been well and truly over this one a billion times and i for one am a bit over it all.
anyhow, to avoid a silly argument i'm going to have a shot at better articulating your argument for you and prempting what you will next say to me should i take this one up with you..(and by no means am i implying you are inarticulate glyn - i particuarly like the use of the word "myriad" in an earlier post
) its not about elephants at taronga making more money than elephants at dubbo per se. currently both zoos house them and no doubt will continue to. and its not about a large group of elephants vs a small group or "new" thai elephants vs elderly zoo veteran elephants. my guess is neither pull more crowds than the other (i can't prove this but i bet TOTE pulled more visitors when it first opened with just two elephants than it did when the thai girls arrived).
its about the revenue-raising potential a baby elephant has. and on this glyn you are 100% correct. if hypothetically both dubbo and taronga zoo had a baby elephant born tomorrow - it would be taronga that would make the lions share of the money, and it would be A LOT.
so if, as suggested dubbo bred the elephants and taronga just held bulls or old animals, its true the NSW zoo board would be missing out on making money on their biggest investment.
werribee on the otherhand, due to its close proximity to melbourne city, should it have a baby elephant could make a sizable contribution (so long as melbourne did not also have a baby elephant).
but in the end none of that much matters for the elephants does it. i haven't visited dubbo, but odds are i would be no more impressed with their elephant exhibit than i would tarongas. for me its never been that open-range zoos are better for elephants than city zoos full stop. its about potential. space offers more potential. city zoos can never offer much more than what you see there today.
euthanasia
patrick, i value each animal as you know, and we all do, as does the zoological boards of austrlia. for eg, nsw states animals are not to be destryed as long as they can provide ocmofrt and its not in pain. and to provide best care until a stage at which cannot be given quality life.
look ill give u the best example.
dubbo has something like 13 p horse
5 are 2 old to breed
2 are castrated males
3 are 2 closely related to last breeding male
this leaves 1 male, and 2 potntial breeders, therefore 9 animals take up valuable space and posituions in region.
these are valuable places, so if we got rid of excess animals, we are able to introduce new stock, then we are on track to saving a highly endagered species, with good gemnteic base stock.remember that zoos hold captive backup populations for wild ones, so if worse comes to worse and wild sock decreases significantly, we have well breed, good genetic stock, on which to refound wild populations.
of course pat, as you know, i love animals, and ye i Rip Cheri, and i treasure each life, i should just be buddist. but we need to take a mature approach about the future of zoo stock for our own viablilty in region, but as for future wild introduced stock. u pat say we need more animals, well we carnt unless we have positions avaliable. (by positions we think about the recoursces that go into each animal)
euthanasia is an effective tool, as long as used with a mature apporach. other methods shhould be utilised first, such as finding institutes to hold geriatric animals, and also sex selection as both i mentioned in previous post. zoos today as well all agree are more than just menageries, we are saving highy endangered species.
now i am not saying go out and shoot every excess animal, but we do neeed free spaces. and i dont say shoot all geriatric animals, after careful planning and magemant, selction and exhausting every other option, than yes euthanasia can be a succesful tool
thst my 2 cents
patrick, i value each animal as you know, and we all do, as does the zoological boards of austrlia. for eg, nsw states animals are not to be destryed as long as they can provide ocmofrt and its not in pain. and to provide best care until a stage at which cannot be given quality life.
look ill give u the best example.
dubbo has something like 13 p horse
5 are 2 old to breed
2 are castrated males
3 are 2 closely related to last breeding male
this leaves 1 male, and 2 potntial breeders, therefore 9 animals take up valuable space and posituions in region.
these are valuable places, so if we got rid of excess animals, we are able to introduce new stock, then we are on track to saving a highly endagered species, with good gemnteic base stock.remember that zoos hold captive backup populations for wild ones, so if worse comes to worse and wild sock decreases significantly, we have well breed, good genetic stock, on which to refound wild populations.
of course pat, as you know, i love animals, and ye i Rip Cheri, and i treasure each life, i should just be buddist. but we need to take a mature approach about the future of zoo stock for our own viablilty in region, but as for future wild introduced stock. u pat say we need more animals, well we carnt unless we have positions avaliable. (by positions we think about the recoursces that go into each animal)
euthanasia is an effective tool, as long as used with a mature apporach. other methods shhould be utilised first, such as finding institutes to hold geriatric animals, and also sex selection as both i mentioned in previous post. zoos today as well all agree are more than just menageries, we are saving highy endangered species.
now i am not saying go out and shoot every excess animal, but we do neeed free spaces. and i dont say shoot all geriatric animals, after careful planning and magemant, selction and exhausting every other option, than yes euthanasia can be a succesful tool
thst my 2 cents
My personal feeling would be to go with the suggestion zoo boy brought up about private individuals and organisations having bachelors or old animals. I also think there could be a niche for a small zoo that doesn't breed any animals but instead takes on old and unneeded animals, escess males, closely related females etc. If that hypothetical zoo then has lot of signage saying things like "Matuba the old tiger has lived most of his life at Melbourne. He has retired here, thus allowing Melbourne to provide space for a new breeding male. The alternative might have been to euthanise him" This would certainly get the sympathy vote and I'm sure most people would be happy to not have baby animals so as to provide a retirement home. Maybe this is the sort of zoo I should create?