Hi, what crocodile species exactly?
Mixed species exhibits #2
- Thread starter Ungulata
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Hi, what crocodile species exactly?
Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
I don't know, ask Childonais, it's his picture on the gallery!
The photo was mentioned had been taken by AI
I think it is not a good combination ...
can you make a link to the photo? I can't find it...
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Orycteropus: It's rather "dangerous" for the alligators, as they are regularily replaced juveniles...
Like I wrote before: the new exhibit at Münster does not mix the two species; they are seperated from each other by a glass wall.
Erdmännchencam 1 - WDR.de
Like I wrote before: the new exhibit at Münster does not mix the two species; they are seperated from each other by a glass wall.
Erdmännchencam 1 - WDR.de
Writhedhornbill
Well-Known Member
thanks,
I avoided Safari World on principle when I was in Thailand. I had originally planned on going because I was intrigued by the information they had "white pandas" and as far as I knew the only giant pandas in Thailand were at Chiang Mai Zoo. But when I tried to find out about these pandas on the internet before I left New Zealand, I found out that Safari World had had 115 (that's one hundred and fifteen) smuggled Bornean orang-utans confiscated from their premises in 2004! A number of those confiscated orangs that were supposed to be sent back to Borneo instead turned up at Chiang Mai's Night Safari Zoo later. And when I was actually over there (in 2006) there was an item in the Bangkok Post about Safari World in trouble again for possibly-illegal elephants it was trying to send out of the country.
I avoided Safari World on principle when I was in Thailand. I had originally planned on going because I was intrigued by the information they had "white pandas" and as far as I knew the only giant pandas in Thailand were at Chiang Mai Zoo. But when I tried to find out about these pandas on the internet before I left New Zealand, I found out that Safari World had had 115 (that's one hundred and fifteen) smuggled Bornean orang-utans confiscated from their premises in 2004! A number of those confiscated orangs that were supposed to be sent back to Borneo instead turned up at Chiang Mai's Night Safari Zoo later. And when I was actually over there (in 2006) there was an item in the Bangkok Post about Safari World in trouble again for possibly-illegal elephants it was trying to send out of the country.
@ Sun Wukong: Raccoons consume small animals and different species’ eggs, yes, but don’t You think that a full-grown alligator (but also a smaller individual) can be dangerous for the Raccoons? Or did I ask a stupidity?
About the rhino & meerkat theme: I meant what You wrote that they haven’t mix these species yet, but plan to take this. Apart from this You could tell me Your opinion about this combination, couldn’t you?
About the rhino & meerkat theme: I meant what You wrote that they haven’t mix these species yet, but plan to take this. Apart from this You could tell me Your opinion about this combination, couldn’t you?
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Orycteropus: Raccoons eat young alligators if given the chance, but that's not the point here. The alligators, put together with the big, fat raccoons at Omaha are youngsters, big enough not be eaten by the raccoons, but not big enough to eat the raccoons. Once the alligators have reached a certain size, they're brought back to the alligator farm they came from in the first place and are replaced with a new bunch of juvenile gators. The raccoons don't seem to mind the snappy company and even steal their food (that's why they're so big & fat).
They won't mix the two species at Münster; otherwise they wouldn't have built the expensive glass seperation, would they? "Yet not" isn't the same as "not yet"...
You want my point of view on that? Personally, I don't like meerkats; they're the prime example of the ongoing dull standardisation of zoological collections in favour of certain crowd pleasers. Therefore, every combination with or new buildt exhibit for meerkats is a lost opportunity. Zoos with an ex-situ species protection agenda should rather try to get and breed Narrow-striped Mongooses instead...Is that the personal opinion You wanted?
They won't mix the two species at Münster; otherwise they wouldn't have built the expensive glass seperation, would they? "Yet not" isn't the same as "not yet"...
You want my point of view on that? Personally, I don't like meerkats; they're the prime example of the ongoing dull standardisation of zoological collections in favour of certain crowd pleasers. Therefore, every combination with or new buildt exhibit for meerkats is a lost opportunity. Zoos with an ex-situ species protection agenda should rather try to get and breed Narrow-striped Mongooses instead...Is that the personal opinion You wanted?
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@ Sun Wukong: this Raccoon & Alligator coexistence at Omaha is much more understandable thus You add to some details for that.
Working out in details the most appropriate collection plans by zoos is a very double-edged problem. On the one hand zoos should try to keep more and more endangered species and consequently replace their 'common' animals for the threatened species. On the other hand zoos should keep species which we called 'favourites with the audience'. Keeping these species favourized by the visitors is necessary therefore more and more visitors will go to visit zoos. Certainly these categories doesn’t lock out each other, there are many species in captivity which equally endangered and very popular for the visitors. The matter of moving out a common species from the collection is varying depending on whether which species/taxons we are talking about. In the case of we are talking about Meerkats I tend to agree with You: it is true that this mongoose species is the best-known and consequently fairly much liked animals, but an other mongoose species – for example what You mentioned previously – would be as popular as Meerkats. European zoos had better if they have had the possibility to create a larger founder population of these endangered madagascan species on the occasion of the Madagascar Campaign for example.
But currently Meerkats are very popular inhabitants at zoos and this matter shouldn’t leave out of consideration …
'nor yet' ... 'yet not' ... a shame on me ...
Working out in details the most appropriate collection plans by zoos is a very double-edged problem. On the one hand zoos should try to keep more and more endangered species and consequently replace their 'common' animals for the threatened species. On the other hand zoos should keep species which we called 'favourites with the audience'. Keeping these species favourized by the visitors is necessary therefore more and more visitors will go to visit zoos. Certainly these categories doesn’t lock out each other, there are many species in captivity which equally endangered and very popular for the visitors. The matter of moving out a common species from the collection is varying depending on whether which species/taxons we are talking about. In the case of we are talking about Meerkats I tend to agree with You: it is true that this mongoose species is the best-known and consequently fairly much liked animals, but an other mongoose species – for example what You mentioned previously – would be as popular as Meerkats. European zoos had better if they have had the possibility to create a larger founder population of these endangered madagascan species on the occasion of the Madagascar Campaign for example.
But currently Meerkats are very popular inhabitants at zoos and this matter shouldn’t leave out of consideration …
'nor yet' ... 'yet not' ... a shame on me ...
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Orycteropus: Did You really think the staff at Omaha would be so dumb to put raccoons and adult gators together? Ergo, my very first description of the scenario should have gone without saying. I added the details You asked for-end of story.
Could You please keep those old and rusty shibboleths and bromides about the importance of "crowd pleasers" (that's the actual term) in zoos under Your hat? Thank You. The never-ending discussion about what species to keep in a zoo has been mentioned in this forum (in various threads) as well as in all zoo conventions, conferences and debates about zoos again and again and again and... and is always brought up in zoos whenever a new exhibit is planned. All in all, that fig leaf of an excuse to keep uninspired, more and more uniform animal collections in equally uninspired, more and more uniform expensive exhibits, while promoting the zoo as a forerunner in terms of conservation efforts (although the actual investment in conservation of that particular zoo is often only a tiny fraction of the money invested in the new meerkat exhibit...), has become more and more holey and diaphanous... Hopefully, the common visitor will realize that just in time. Otherwise, zoo fans might marvel one day about the times when zoo collections had more to offer than just llamas, bennett's wallabies, budgies, pygmy goats and, yes, meerkats...
If You ask for my opinion, then my opinion about that particular species composition shouldn't be left "out of consideration", should it? ... So when You ask me about the Münster combi, all I can say is that I don't appretiate it because I consider investing a lot of money in such common and dime-in-a-dozen species (no matter how "crowd-pleasing" they are) a waste of money and opportunities. (Even though I otherwise highly praise Jörg Adler's work at the zoo in collaboration with the ZGAP).
Back to topic.
Could You please keep those old and rusty shibboleths and bromides about the importance of "crowd pleasers" (that's the actual term) in zoos under Your hat? Thank You. The never-ending discussion about what species to keep in a zoo has been mentioned in this forum (in various threads) as well as in all zoo conventions, conferences and debates about zoos again and again and again and... and is always brought up in zoos whenever a new exhibit is planned. All in all, that fig leaf of an excuse to keep uninspired, more and more uniform animal collections in equally uninspired, more and more uniform expensive exhibits, while promoting the zoo as a forerunner in terms of conservation efforts (although the actual investment in conservation of that particular zoo is often only a tiny fraction of the money invested in the new meerkat exhibit...), has become more and more holey and diaphanous... Hopefully, the common visitor will realize that just in time. Otherwise, zoo fans might marvel one day about the times when zoo collections had more to offer than just llamas, bennett's wallabies, budgies, pygmy goats and, yes, meerkats...
If You ask for my opinion, then my opinion about that particular species composition shouldn't be left "out of consideration", should it? ... So when You ask me about the Münster combi, all I can say is that I don't appretiate it because I consider investing a lot of money in such common and dime-in-a-dozen species (no matter how "crowd-pleasing" they are) a waste of money and opportunities. (Even though I otherwise highly praise Jörg Adler's work at the zoo in collaboration with the ZGAP).
Back to topic.
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I agree meerkats are commonplace but I do like the idea of hoofstock and small carnivores in the same exhibit. Narrowstriped or ringtail mongooses look great and presumably would be suitable for this kind of exhibit, but the zoogeographical pedant might object.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Pygathrix: Since then has the zoogeographical aspect been carried out correctly in most of the "African Savannah" exhibits in zoos? Usually, it's a colourful mixture of East and South African species, with the one or other West or North African species thrown into the mix. And don't forget the ocassional Ring-Tailed or Ruffed Lemur (walk-through) exhibit, which somehow found its way to "Africa"...
A Narrow-striped Mongoose exhibit wouldn't make much of a difference in such a scenario-although this species hasn't been in an animated movie (yet => "Madagascar 2"?) to be interesting enough for the mass media-dependent public.
A Narrow-striped Mongoose exhibit wouldn't make much of a difference in such a scenario-although this species hasn't been in an animated movie (yet => "Madagascar 2"?) to be interesting enough for the mass media-dependent public.
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Sorry Everybody for the off topic …
@ Sun Wukong:
1. I don’t entirely understand why You talk to me such a tone like this …
2. Omaha Zoo: certainly I don’t think that the staff at Omaha Zoo 'dumb', I was only curious to know how they manage this mixed exhibit. Otherwise I asked that, because sometimes (or every now and then) occurs that a professionaly recognized and famous institution make inappropriate decision which may lead to undesirable accidents… I wouldn’t like to mention thats. … And the fact that Omaha Zoo replace their alligators for a new group if they reach the given size I’m afraid many zoos wouldn’t have the possibility to make this, so it isn’t too obvious as You said.
3. Please allow me to mention 'those old and rusty shibboleths and bromides about the importance of "crowd pleasers". Please believe that I’m aware of the importance of the question under discussion. Otherwise zoos don’t exist for 'zoo fans', and zoos don’t have the same possibilities to fulfill all the requirements which should be done. For example I well know a very small zoo with a miserable financial background: the lack of the international connections in consequence of they only have 'common species' … therefore they work out a marvellous educational program inside the zoo. But there are lots of examlples for, and I rather finish this theme before You call my attention that I write many 'bromides' …
4. I repeat again that I don’t entirely understand Your tone because I said I agree with Your opinion about the Meerkat theme …
5. But You are right, this is an other theme on an other thread …so I turn back to this thread. If it is not a problem, I right away ask something to You. You mentioned on this thread previously that Tierpark Nadermann keeps its Servals together with various ungulates (like elands). Could You tell me what any other ungulates species with?
@ Sun Wukong:
1. I don’t entirely understand why You talk to me such a tone like this …
2. Omaha Zoo: certainly I don’t think that the staff at Omaha Zoo 'dumb', I was only curious to know how they manage this mixed exhibit. Otherwise I asked that, because sometimes (or every now and then) occurs that a professionaly recognized and famous institution make inappropriate decision which may lead to undesirable accidents… I wouldn’t like to mention thats. … And the fact that Omaha Zoo replace their alligators for a new group if they reach the given size I’m afraid many zoos wouldn’t have the possibility to make this, so it isn’t too obvious as You said.
3. Please allow me to mention 'those old and rusty shibboleths and bromides about the importance of "crowd pleasers". Please believe that I’m aware of the importance of the question under discussion. Otherwise zoos don’t exist for 'zoo fans', and zoos don’t have the same possibilities to fulfill all the requirements which should be done. For example I well know a very small zoo with a miserable financial background: the lack of the international connections in consequence of they only have 'common species' … therefore they work out a marvellous educational program inside the zoo. But there are lots of examlples for, and I rather finish this theme before You call my attention that I write many 'bromides' …
4. I repeat again that I don’t entirely understand Your tone because I said I agree with Your opinion about the Meerkat theme …
5. But You are right, this is an other theme on an other thread …so I turn back to this thread. If it is not a problem, I right away ask something to You. You mentioned on this thread previously that Tierpark Nadermann keeps its Servals together with various ungulates (like elands). Could You tell me what any other ungulates species with?
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Orycteropus:
1. & 3. & 4.: Don't You think that actually everyone on this forum knows well about the "crowd-pleaser" issue (as it has been part of several lengthy threads and a topic one always faces when seriously dealing with zoos)? Therefore, You might understand that Your dialogue partner might get a little touchy (as he/she feels kind of underrated) if You try to bring that up as something new and unheard of-and that in a rather patronizing way...To avoid future changes of "tones", I'd advise You to just assume from now on that the person You correspond to here knows as much about the topic in doubt as You do; if not, he/she can enquire to learn more about it. That would avoid treading on someone's toes and handing out "bromides" due to misunderstanding each other ...OK?
It's all nice & fine if small, financially weak zoos just keep the common species properly (even though they could also play their role in ex-situ conservation by f.e. keeping surplus males of endangered species like Philippine Spotted Deer) and compensate this by offering better zoo education; however, that is hardly a good excuse for most of the major zoos with good financial balance.
2. So why did You have to write: "this Raccoon & Alligator coexistence at Omaha is much more understandable thus You add to some details for that."? After extruding the needed information from me, You could have really saved Yourself writing that...Sorry having to write this, but that kind of bothered me.
5. Boer/Valais-Goats, Dwarf Zebus-yet not all of them at the same time. Other species:
Egret monkeys and Dwarf Donkeys.
1. & 3. & 4.: Don't You think that actually everyone on this forum knows well about the "crowd-pleaser" issue (as it has been part of several lengthy threads and a topic one always faces when seriously dealing with zoos)? Therefore, You might understand that Your dialogue partner might get a little touchy (as he/she feels kind of underrated) if You try to bring that up as something new and unheard of-and that in a rather patronizing way...To avoid future changes of "tones", I'd advise You to just assume from now on that the person You correspond to here knows as much about the topic in doubt as You do; if not, he/she can enquire to learn more about it. That would avoid treading on someone's toes and handing out "bromides" due to misunderstanding each other ...OK?
It's all nice & fine if small, financially weak zoos just keep the common species properly (even though they could also play their role in ex-situ conservation by f.e. keeping surplus males of endangered species like Philippine Spotted Deer) and compensate this by offering better zoo education; however, that is hardly a good excuse for most of the major zoos with good financial balance.
2. So why did You have to write: "this Raccoon & Alligator coexistence at Omaha is much more understandable thus You add to some details for that."? After extruding the needed information from me, You could have really saved Yourself writing that...Sorry having to write this, but that kind of bothered me.
5. Boer/Valais-Goats, Dwarf Zebus-yet not all of them at the same time. Other species:
Egret monkeys and Dwarf Donkeys.
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re the last bit of your post Sun Wukong, goats and dwarf zebu were kept with serval? How did that work out?
And the second bit about egrets, monkeys and dwarf donkeys...do you mean they were another combination with serval (which seems unlikely) or a combination in themselves?
And the second bit about egrets, monkeys and dwarf donkeys...do you mean they were another combination with serval (which seems unlikely) or a combination in themselves?
they would be either saltwater and/or Siamese (or hybrids between), as these are the most common species in crocodile farms in Asia and would be easily obtainable for a place like Safari World. They also look to be fairly small individuals.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Chlidonias: Tierpark Nadermann keeps (or rather kept-haven't been there for quite a while) servals together with egret monkeys (=,Crab-eating Macaque (Macaca fascicularis) ), dwarf donkeys, goats and eland (and before the eland, with dwarf zebus) in one exhibit. According to the staff, this combination worked-except for one serval trying to attack an eland calf.
oh OK thanks. I've never heard the term "egret monkey" before.
@ Sun Wukong:
I don’t think that I know more about certain themes than members who read (or just visit) this (or an other) thread. I wrote only a few introductory sentences about 'usual' things, practically like connecting with the theme what You started beforehand (about Meerkats). Therefore I’m a bit surprised why do You think such a thing that I talk to my dialogue partner in a loud voice. If You think that, sorry, but You are wrong. Omaha Zoo: I said that was easily understandable to have a 'picture' about how they manage the given mixed exhibit, after You add a bit more informations from that. How do You mean exactly I 'extrude' the informations from You? If I ask You (or anybody else) about certain things, I only would like to 'have' informations not 'extrude' them … But all in all, I think we don’t have serious problems in this Forum (I hope You think the same)…. as You said correctly, we were only misunderstood each other in some events.
Eventually, thanks for the information about the mixed exhibit with Servals.
@ Chlidonias: thanks for the info (I just now see Your answer on the gallery, too)
Does anybody have information about that jackals and ungulates have been mixed at Vienna or not? Unfortunately I’ve seen this part of the zoo just for a short time where these species live when I was there.
I don’t think that I know more about certain themes than members who read (or just visit) this (or an other) thread. I wrote only a few introductory sentences about 'usual' things, practically like connecting with the theme what You started beforehand (about Meerkats). Therefore I’m a bit surprised why do You think such a thing that I talk to my dialogue partner in a loud voice. If You think that, sorry, but You are wrong. Omaha Zoo: I said that was easily understandable to have a 'picture' about how they manage the given mixed exhibit, after You add a bit more informations from that. How do You mean exactly I 'extrude' the informations from You? If I ask You (or anybody else) about certain things, I only would like to 'have' informations not 'extrude' them … But all in all, I think we don’t have serious problems in this Forum (I hope You think the same)…. as You said correctly, we were only misunderstood each other in some events.
Eventually, thanks for the information about the mixed exhibit with Servals.
@ Chlidonias: thanks for the info (I just now see Your answer on the gallery, too)
Does anybody have information about that jackals and ungulates have been mixed at Vienna or not? Unfortunately I’ve seen this part of the zoo just for a short time where these species live when I was there.