Twycross Zoo Molly's Zoo

[taun]

There seems to be a lot of bad mouthing of Molly Badham on here. The woman did what she believed to be right and without her Twycross zoo would never have exist. The way she went about it may have been wrong and it may be right to say the zoo was probably kept behind the times by her. At the end of the day whose to say some of the more revolutionary zoos around today may be classed as being behind the times in a few years.

Its easy to sit here and say she shouldn't have done this and she shouldn't have done that but we didn't run the place. The chimp tea parties may nowadays be seen as cruel but in those days little was known about animal welfare. The money provided by these chimps most likely kept Twycross going so that it could grow and eventually pay the bills through visitors visiting the zoo

I don't think anyone is bad mouthing Molly here. I think most people on this forum would agree that Molly has created a diverse and great collection of animals, in what is only a small zoo. I love Tywcross Zoo the collection of primates is fantastic, but I wish they could maybe just plant up some of the exhibits to make them more suitable (Gorilla's, Orangutans, Bonobo's and Chimps)

Alot of people are stating there displeasure with the way some of the animals are kept nowadays, with the better understadning we now have. Enclosure are adequate but not great and this includes the newer enclosures. The fact that some of the animals are not kept in natural groups (Gorillas with no sliver back, OK some other problems may have held this up, Elephants not given the opportunity to breed and if they are they are thou A.I.)

 

[Pertinax]

There seems to be a lot of bad mouthing of Molly Badham on here.

People are not bad mouthing Molly Badham. I met her and found her a nice little lady- though I certainly don't share her views about how to keep animals.

What bothers me is the way Tywcross Zoo still(today) manage some species(particularly as described above) and this is largely the result of the earlier principles which Molly Badham laid down and whichseem to remain largely unchanged since her retirement/death.

And I'm still waiting for the person who claimed Twycross has done much for 'endangered species conservation and animal welfare standards' to provide some examples....

 

[Pertinax]

Its now coming up for 18 months but I wonder if they've even applied for another yet... They say they want a 'younger' male for safety reasons as there's a 5 year old still in the group- but that's still no real obstacle to introducing another male. I would be happy if they amalgamated the gorillas into a single group with 'SamSam' as the silverback- he wouldn't hurt a fly...

 

[taun]

People are not bad mouthing Molly Badham. I met her and found her a nice little lady- though I certainly don't share her views about how to keep animals.

What bothers me is the way Tywcross Zoo still(today) manage some species(particularly as described above) and this is largely the result of the earlier principles which Molly Badham laid down and which remain unchanged since her retirement/death.

Exectly, were stating our own opinions, that would come across if we managed such a facility. However many of us are here because we have an interest in animals and are not attached to collections. That doesn't mean we cannot give our views and opinions on the matter in had, it's not a personal attack.

 

[taun]

Its now coming up for 18 months and I wonder if they've applied for another yet...

I gather that one of the females of the breeding group is related to the sliver back in the older group?

Am not stating that as an option, but was wondering why they have two groups any way with such small numbers?

 

[Pertinax]

I gather that one of the females of the breeding group is related to the sliver back in the older group?

Am not stating that as an option, but was wondering why they have two groups any way with such small numbers?

Definately not. The two females Asante and Ozala are halfsisters but not related
to 'SamSam' at all. He WAS the father of their mate Sekondi(concieved when he lived at Edinburgh, not at Twycross) so he's the grandfather of the 5year old male 'Matadi. But the females are unrelated to him.

The two groups arose because the younger females were fathered by the previous breeding male Mamfe so they had to start a new group. But now Mamfe is dead and 'SamSam'(who is wildborn) is staying permanently at Twycross. His only relative now is this one grandson, so he really needs to breed again.

The main problem with the one group idea is probably the number of sleeping dens in each enclosure, but it would benefit the animals a great deal...

 

[taun]

Definately not. The two females Asante and Ozala are halfsisters but not related
to 'SamSam' at all. He WAS the father of their mate Sekondi(concieved when he lived at Edinburgh, not at Twycross) so he's the grandfather of the 5year old male 'Matadi. But the females are unrelated to him.

The two groups arose because the younger females were fathered by the previous breeding male Mamfe so they had to start a new group. But now Mamfe is dead and 'SamSam'(who is wildborn) is staying permanently at Twycross. His only relative now is this one grandson, so he really needs to breed again.

The main problem with the one group idea is probably the number of sleeping dens in each enclosure, but it would benefit the animals a great deal...

Interesting, thanks for the Information.

It is a shame, because the two groups combined would make a much better environment. Especially when it comes to potential new additions to the group with older experienced mums.

 

[Pertinax]

Interesting, thanks for the Information.

It is a shame, because the two groups combined would make a much better environment. Especially when it comes to potential new additions to the group with older experienced mums.

Currently (apart from the very old male Joe who lives singly), there are six gorillas.
'Old' group is Samsam plus females Biddy and Bongo(Joe's former mate). Bongo has never bred and never will. Biddy has bred previously.
'Young' group is females Asante(Mamfe x Eva) and Ozala(Mamfe x Biddy) plus Ozala's 5yr son 'Matadi' (Sekondi x Ozala)

Combining the two groups in the newer enclosure would maybe be the best course of action- except that it would leave 'Joe' alone in the older house- maybe they could put non-breeding 'Bongo' back with him as a companion?

SamSam would then have 3 females- Biddy, Ozala and Asante. Though he's old he might breed with them- he has mated Biddy... Its still a mess though... Asante in particular needs a surefire male to breed with really.

 

[taun]

SamSam would then have 3 females- Biddy, Ozala and Asante. Though he's old he might breed with them- he has mated Biddy... Its still a mess though... Asante in particular needs a surefire male to breed with really.

Even if SamSam didn't get any of the females pregnant, they would still have contact with an experienced silverback, which would benefit them greatly.

Lets just keep our fingers crossed that this get sorted out soonish

 

[ZooMania]

Can i take the first part of my earlier comment back. Twycross is not a bad zoo, there are certainly worse zoos. It's just a fairly average zoo which could do with some improvements ina few places.

Molly Badham (and Nathalie Evans of course) must be praised for starting such an interesting collection which has housed such a wide array of primate species. Without Twycross the UK woudnt house any Bonobos.

 

[JamesB]

can we remeber how long ago this was when they started this collection, if you were alive then im sure you would have understood her methods

i read in the book back then not enev london zoo knew how to look after wolly monkey properly!

 

[ZooMania]

Really my criticism is not towards Molly Badham, its towards the people who run Twycross now. Its them who need to start improving some enclsoures for quite a lot of animals if they want to keep up with other zoos.

 

[Pertinax]

Even if SamSam didn't get any of the females pregnant, they would still have contact with an experienced silverback, which would benefit them greatly.

Yes, it would be neater and a better social arrangement than the two 'halfgroups' they have now. My main concern here is that(unrepresented) Asante is allowed to breed before its too late though.
We can only hope things get resolved for the better soon...

 

[JamesB]

well it kind of reminds me of dartmoor wildlife park and marwell a few years back, no new exhibits, old technology and oldish cages but since they have picked things up and improved, maybe this is what twycross needs to do?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

So how come no other zoos dressed-up chimps or handraised babies unnecessarily and humanised other apes so they wouldn't breed? Have you seen where the remaining old 'Tea Party' chimps still live at Twycross?

In the 1950's the practice of tea parties was common in zoos. It was perceived as a "fun" activity benefitting the great apes themselves. We thankfully know better now, though debates about great apes in captivity still elicit a fair bit of anthropomorph reactions. For the latter I would say we Homo sapiens are great apes and no more no less (and no better for that matter then other animals).

Whereas the book aptly describes the emergence of Twycross Zoo and how a zoo enthusiast like Molly Badham established herself and the zoo in the wider zoological community, we may and will critisize the late and current management of Twycross Zoo for their past and present animal management practices and descisions. Most importantly this applies to those for all the great apes, the large primate collection and the Asian elephants.

I still feel the zoo lacks direction in terms of where does it want to be or go? It could be a showcase and learning center for primate conservation (viz Apenheul, Apeldoorn and La Vallee des Singes, Romagne), yet it is not known for its revolutionary approach to exhibiting primates in captivity nor its leadership in primate conservation. To me that is a serious missed opportunity for a zoo of Twycross's stature!!!

 

[Chris79]

I went to Twycross last year, my first visit for 15 years, and the sad fact is it looked exactly the same. Meanwhile, Chester Zoo today is unrecognisable from the Chester Zoo of 15 years ago.

I hope that, starting with the planned new entrance development (much needed!) we see step-change in the design of exhibits and facilities. The good thing for Twycross is that their visitor numbers are very good so they must have the revenue to make improvements.

 

[Pertinax]

I revisited Twycross today. I must say very little has changed since my last visit a couple of years back. Even more strongly I felt it really isn't a very good place for some of their animals. None of the chimps in the old cages had access to any neighbours with all the doors firmly closed they are still just pairs. One of the two Bonobo groups is shut indoors for half the day(or more if the other group can't be coaxed back in).

The new Orangutan climbing equipment is very ordinary-firehoses and tall log cabins on stilts. It can't have cost £10,000 which was raised for new equipment. Here was a chance to add some good climbing equiupment but it hasn't really been taken. All the Apes are given material/clothing to play with, why not natural foodstuffs and materials which would be more interesting for them and allow them more dignity? Some of them, particularly the orangs naturally like to cover themselves completely but they look rather stupid. Vegetation such as basmboo or palm leaves would give them similar interest and enrichment but look far more natural. Its old style management and detracts from the exhibit value I think.
Similarly the gorillas sit in their dark indoor areas hardly visible among all the ropes, boxes,plastic bread baskets etc (none of which they appear to use) so the inside cage looks like a junk yard, while the outdoor areas are quite the reverse- totally barren. It is a terrible display. Not to mention the male-less group.

Many of the older blocks of monkey cages are remarkablyly ugly and the old world monkeys are mostly singles or non-breeders nowadays The red brickwork of the buildings makes the zoo look more like a supermarket, or rather, a collection of supermarkets/oiffice blocks.
The 'Bornean longhouse' is okay but it doesn't feature Bornean animals does it- what exactly is its purpose?

No sign of any of the planned new building yet. I really think this could be my last visit there unless things improve radically...

 

[gibbon]

It is sad, that this zoo is not developping, because the primate collection is really unique, especially he gibbon species;-))
What strikes me reading about Twycross is this very high fluctuation in the staff. If you visit the EAZA homepage, everytime there are so many keeper advertisements, mostly also section heads or deputy section heads. In every annual report you read there are new names listed as section heads, but also in the administration there seems to be a high flcutuation. Does anybody know a reason for that? Do they leave on their own, are they fired? What is reason, why they leave? Has it something to do with this bad development of the zoo?

gibbon

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

It is sad, that this zoo is not developping, because the primate collection is really unique, especially he gibbon species;-))
What strikes me reading about Twycross is this very high fluctuation in the staff. If you visit the EAZA homepage, everytime there are so many keeper advertisements, mostly also section heads or deputy section heads. In every annual report you read there are new names listed as section heads, but also in the administration there seems to be a high flcutuation. Does anybody know a reason for that? Do they leave on their own, are they fired? What is reason, why they leave? Has it something to do with this bad development of the zoo?

gibbon

Too many great ape tea parties perhaps? And bad elephant breath, a real stinker ... that is!

 

[Pertinax]

It is sad, that this zoo is not developping, because the primate collection is really unique, especially he gibbon species;-))
What strikes me reading about Twycross is this very high fluctuation in the staff. If you visit the EAZA homepage, everytime there are so many keeper advertisements, mostly also section heads or deputy section heads. In every annual report you read there are new names listed as section heads, but also in the administration there seems to be a high flcutuation. Does anybody know a reason for that?

Yes, their Gibbon collection is very comprehensive- probably unique.

I have no knowledge of the high staff turnover, but it indicates things are not right there. Since Molly Badham retired, the new administration don't seem to have taken any noticeable new direction but high staff turnover indicates 'political' problems within the zoo.

During my recent visit I was very disappointed(yet not surprised) at how little change for the better there has been in management of some species(as mentioned above) over the last few years- and I don't plan to make any more visits unless there are radical improvements- which I'm not expecting to see happen.