Moluccan Rusa

khakibob

Well-Known Member
10+ year member
Anyone know of any "pure" moluccan rusa in zoos or private collections around the globe?

Rusa deer are very abundent,hovever the larger Javan sub species has been transplanted throughout the indigenious range of most of the smaller sub species.
Hybridization between the sub species of rusa & also the sambar's because of relocation,not hunting or habitat loss appears the most immediate threat to all these subspecies.

Aust has only two captive populations left of Moluccan rusa in private collections & small feral populations on small Islands in our north which recieve little or no management as they are introduced exotics.

Cheers Khakibob
 
um, you do know rusa are introduced to the Moluccas right?
 
um, you do know rusa are introduced to the Moluccas right?

There is a "claim" that they may have been introduced by Arab traders as early as 1400 years ago.From which sub species or area do you suggest they originated?

This is just a claim & it has no real bearing on the question as there is six recognisable sub species of rusa & M rusa are different in form & behaviour to the others.This six does not include the sambar's.

I dont doubt that some populations in the Moluccan islands may have been established from introductions from the main islands in the group.

Relocations of larger forms over the previous decades are the greatest threat to these sub species.I'm curious if any zoo's or collections have "pure" M rusa or even other pure sub species other than the Javans.

Cheers Khakibob
 
khakibob said:
There is a "claim" that they may have been introduced by Arab traders as early as 1400 years ago.From which sub species or area do you suggest they originated?

This is just a claim & it has no real bearing on the question as there is six recognisable sub species of rusa & M rusa are different in form & behaviour to the others.This six does not include the sambar's.
its not a "claim" that rusa are an introduced species to the Lesser Sundas and the Moluccas, it is a fact that is well supported and provable by both standard zoogeographical knowledge and actual subfossil deposit sites on the islands. They are originally native to Java and Bali, on the western side of Wallace's Line. The reason the introduced insular populations are different is simply through the (probably) small founding stock and accompanying genetic loss/drift, and the very well understood phenomenon of insular dwarfism. Subspecific nomenclature is very much a human variable, what is recognised as important today is not recognised tomorrow. Does it matter if Javan rusa swamp Lesser Sunda and Moluccan rusa? I would say not at all.
 
Does it matter if Javan rusa swamp Lesser Sunda and Moluccan rusa? I would say not at all.

Thank you for your opinion Chilonias.

Now for those of us who think it does matter, I would like to ask.
Does anyone know of any pure populations of the recognisable sub species of rusa in zoos or private collections?

Cheers Khakibob
 
Thank you for your opinion Chilonias.

Now for those of us who think it does matter, I would like to ask.
Does anyone know of any pure populations of the recognisable sub species of rusa in zoos or private collections?

Cheers Khakibob
Sorry but I'm with Chlidonias on the subject!
 
Thank you for the comments.Interesting thoughts.
Your not concerned about the loss of recognised sub species?

M rusa (Quoy & Gaimard 1830 ), are one of several recognised sub species (Van Bemmel 1950).
The divergence is significantly clear to be seperated into sub species.
Anyone who has or does work with Moluccan rusa & Javan (even watched with a keen eye)will quickly notice the differences,in thier behaviour & form.

Does anyone know of any populations of pure sub species of rusa in zoos or private collections around the globe?

Thank you
Khakibob
 
Do you have any evidence to the contrary that the Maluku Rusa (Cervus timorensis moluccensis) that shows it to be a valid taxon? The entire population of Cervus timorensis does seem to be on the Australian side of the Wallace line, but everything except the Maluku population is west of the Weber line. The Wallace line is the north/west boundary for Australian fauna, while the Weber line is the south/east limit of Asian fauna. Using this as a rule the deer on Maluku must have been introduced by humans at some point in the past and are not native to these islands. This therefore calls into doubt their validity as a true taxa.

You must realize, over the past year the whole issue of subspecies/species of ungulates has been completely turned on its head. Many subspecies have been raised to full species level, while others of dubious nature have been completely dropped. Without my sources at hand, I cannot comment on the actual subspecific status of Cervus timorensis.
 
Slight correction to the above, Java is on the Asian side of the Wallace line and not the Australian.
 
Update, in doing more research, it seems that Cervus timorensis is originally only native to Java and Bali (both on the Asian side of the Wallace line). This makes total sense as large Asian mammals are not generally found on the Australian side. All other populations of Cervus timorensis including those on Timor, Maluku, Sulawasi, etc. are all introduced populations.
 
with regards to the Lesser Sunda and Sulawesi rusa populations, there has been a lot of research done into the subfossil deposits of Flores which shows quite conclusively that deer were introduced there in fairly recent (possibly European historical) times. As some example dates, Sulawesi warty pigs are first recorded in the deposits around 7000 years ago; Asian wild pigs, crab-eating macaques, porcupines and palm civet around 4500 years ago; and deer, cattle and horses within a European time frame. [See for example G.D. van den Bergh et. al. (2009) "The Liang Bua faunal remains: a 95 k. yr. sequence from Flores, East Indonesia" in Journal of Human Evolution, vol. 57, issue 5: pp. 527-537]

For Timor (where the species was originally described from, hence the specific name timorensis) and Sulawesi, deer remains only appear in the record around 4500 years ago, which is clearly a factor of human agency. [See A. Simons and D. Bulbeck (2004) "Late Quaternary faunal successions in South Sulawesi, Indonesia" in Modern Quaternary Research in Southeast Asia, vol. 18: pp. 167-190]

For the Moluccas, it is quite clear that the non-volant native mammalian fauna is composed of marsupials and Australia-origin rodents. Rusa deer are not a native component of the fauna.

With regards to the subspecies (I have found at least 21 named subspecies for rusa by the way!), the last described appears to be djonga in 1949, which means that all rusa subspecies have been determined solely by appearance and distribution (with no real understanding at that point that all non-Javan/Balinese rusa were introductions). I don't believe there has been any genetic work done on rusa subspecies to determine how different they in fact are.

None of this directly addresses khakibob's question as to whether there are Moluccan rusa in zoos somewhere, but it does obviously have bearing on the opinion that Moluccan rusa need preserving as a distinct form. To give an example on a lesser time-scale, parma wallabies were introduced to Kawau Island off NZ around 1870. Today they are smaller than Australian parmas and breed at a younger age (or older? I can't remember which one), and they have some genetic differences due to their small founder base. Should NZ parmas be singled out for a special breeding programme to preserve this unique NZ form? No, they are just an introduced and inbred population.
 
Do you have any evidence to the contrary that the Maluku Rusa (Cervus timorensis moluccensis) that shows it to be a valid taxon?

It would help to locate collections of rusa either in zoos or private which are pure (collected before the deer farming boom of the 70"s when the Javan sub species was relocated to most islands becauce of its larger size & antlers,hence value)so a better sample using DNA can be built on the various sub species.

Childonas,Flores is not in the Maluku/Moluccan islands.Your also making assumptions & starting to use the word "possibly" to support your position.
I have already said I don't doubt that the populations on some islands are from recent introductions.
Does your search of rusa include the sambars,which are not rusa?

Back to the OP again.
Does any one know of any populations of sub species of rusa in zoos or private collections other than the Javan rusa.(M rusa is the most divergent from the "type" & the one of most interest to me in particular.)

Thank you
Khakibob
 
khakibob said:
Childonas,Flores is not in the Maluku/Moluccan islands.Your also making assumptions & starting to use the word "possibly" to support your position.
I have already said I don't doubt that the populations on some islands are from recent introductions.
Does your search of rusa include the sambars,which are not rusa?
yes I know quite well where Flores is. If you read my post again you will see that the first two paragraphs were about the introduced populations of rusa in the Lesser Sundas and on Sulawesi: the first specifically about Flores, the second about Timor and Sulawesi. I was giving you some background into the work that has been done in the zoogeographical area. The third paragraph was about the Moluccas. Are you perhaps suggesting that rusa are somehow native to the Moluccas and Java but none of the islands in between?

I am not quite sure where you think I am making assumptions: I have tried to be quite clear about the facts in what I have written, and I have used the word "possibly" exactly once -- when I wrote "there has been a lot of research done into the subfossil deposits of Flores which shows quite conclusively that deer were introduced there in fairly recent (possibly European historical) times". That is not my assumption, that is a conclusion of palaeontologists who work in this field and it in no way affects the fact that rusa were introduced to the island. Perhaps read some papers on the subject.

Why would my replies include sambar in any way? If you are referring to the comment about 21 named subspecies of rusa, I was attempting to make the point (which I guess needed to be clearer) that between 1822 and 1949 at least 21 subspecies of rusa were described. Does this mean there are 21 valid taxa of rusa? No it doesn't. Does it mean that the Moluccan rusa is a valid taxon just because it has a name? No it does not.
 
long post, mostly taxonomy. Skip along if you don't care about that.

There seems to be the mistaken impression that speciation stops the second humans become involved. If an animal is introduced to a new location, left to its own and manages to survive, it will eventually become a separate taxon from the original population through allopatric speciation. If this taxon is less 'valuable' because humans were involved at some point in its evolutionary history is a matter of discussion. Compare some island populations of agouti, Cozumel coati and dingo. The most recent major review of the Cervus (Rusa) timorensis subspecies, van Bemmel 1949 (or 1950, since worktime vs. publication has resulted in some confusion when people cite it, but it is a single publication), did document differences, mainly in skull and associated measurements but also in pelage, among the populations. This forms the basis for the seven widely quoted subspecies, including djonga from Muna and Buton island described by van Bemmel himself (e.g., Mammal Species of the World from 2005, and Handbook of the Mammals of the World v. 2 from 2011 both recognize the seven sspp). Several of these likely originate from populations that in ancient times were introduced by man. It has been argued that the differences documented by van Bemmel are trivial but as yet no one has provided a solution based on a sample that was even remotely as complete as his, or, better yet, used moden tecniques like DNA. Even if it appears most mammal taxonomists have overlooked that DNA can't be blindly trusted (ample example in Funk and Omland 2003, Species-level paraphyly and polyphyly: frequency, causes and consequences, with insights from animal mitochondrial DNA). In other words, jbnbsn99, what we are missing is not a study that documents differences between the populations (i.e., subspecies) because van Bemmel provided that. What we are missing is a study that refutes the evidence by van Bemmel. If we consider all Wallacean subspecies invalid solely because of their presumed introductory origin, the species name would likely also have to change to C. (R.) russa since the name timorensis would become indeterminable (assigned to a population that doesn't match any of the certainly native populations). The only other possibilities are to treat the species as monotypic (no difference between Bali and Java populations either) or get an ICZN ruling that allows the designation of a neotype of timorensis.

The question of introductions can be discussed too. Most recent authorities have specifically noted that Wallacean populations likely are the result of introductions. IUCN is one of the few recent authorities that have left out "likely", but the references they provide as a basis for the claim do include the uncertainty. IUCN correctly note, however, that "the Javan Rusa is an able swimmer (Kitchener et al. 1990), hindering determination of its native range". This uncertainty is also refleceted in Long 2003 (Introduced Mammals of the World). While the Wallace Line is of huge importance in zoogeography, it is not an impenetrable border. The Green Junglefowl, a species with a limited dispersal ability, is found on both sides. It has been argued that this also is the result of human introductions, but no evidence for this claim has been provided, and the main reason this theory was even coined was because of the perceived problem in having populations on both sides of W. Line. Of course I am sure we all know elephants also crossed the line, even if the dwarfs on Sulawesi and Flores died out before modern history. Interestingly, Flores and to a lesser extent parts of Sulawesi and Timor are also the only Wallacean locations with a relatively well documented fossil history, but certainly not to a level where I have heard anyone suggesting that every large Pleistocene mammal on the islands now is known from fossils. In summary, it seems highly likely that all Wallacean populations are the result of introductions, but saying it is a fact beyond all doubts doesn't really match the rather meagre published evidence.
 
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jbnbsn99 and myself are quite aware of how speciation works in isolated populations, whether introduced or natural. We weren't saying the subspecies are invalid because they are introduced per se, we were saying that just because subspecies have been named does not automatically mean they are valid taxa (if one can see the distinction there), which appears to be where khakibob is coming from. My personal viewpoint is that the length of time they have been there is irrelevant to their conservation status, because they are introduced through human agency within a very short time-scale (it's a NZ mind-set ;)). Put Javan rusa on the islands, blink your eyes (evolutionarily speaking), and you'll have Moluccan rusa again.

The species name would not change to russa from timorensis if all subspecies were deemed invalid. There are plenty of animals named after and from localities from which the type specimens were collected which are not in their native range (the obvious one off the top of my head is Bipalium kewense).

With regards to your second paragraph, you should have noted that publications discussing the distributional range of rusa largely pre-date most of the palaeontological work in Wallacea, especially in Flores where there is now very good evidence from several sites to show the sequences of animal arrival/extinction.
 
The species name would not change to russa from timorensis if all subspecies were deemed invalid.

this was part of an edit so perhaps easily missed:

Condor said:
only other possibilities are to treat the species as monotypic (no difference between Bali and Java populations either)

--------------

We weren't saying the subspecies are invalid because they are introduced per se

actually, jbnbsn99 was quite clear on this:

the deer on Maluku must have been introduced by humans at some point in the past and are not native to these islands. This therefore calls into doubt their validity as a true taxa.

In summary:
1) Evidence that they differ in appearance has been published. Evidence refuting it has not been published.
2) Only clear published evidence against the validity of the subspecies is their presumed introductory origin.

--------------

From a personal standpoint I suspect they are valid (not under true phyl.sp.concept where subspecies aren't recognized) but their presumed introductory origin means that I just don't care all that much about their conservation status. Sorry if that offends people that do! I have the same feeling when people talk about conservation of New Guinea singing dog+dingo.

If the rusa deer subspecies are recognized I doubt there are viable 'pure' captive populations of any of the non-Javan. Except perhaps at some of the animal parks/zoos in southeast Asia, especially in Indonesia.
 
condor said:
this was part of an edit so perhaps easily missed:
I missed it because you edited it an hour after I posted ;) (but yes, this was basically what I was saying)

condor said:
actually, jbnbsn99 was quite clear on this:
fair enough, he can reply to that point :D

condor said:
In summary:
1) Evidence that they differ in appearance has been published. Evidence refuting it has not been published.
2) Only clear published evidence against the validity of the subspecies is their presumed introductory origin.
true enough. I won't refute that, and I have already said my piece on it so I'd just be repeating myself :)

condor said:
From a personal standpoint I suspect they are valid (not under true phyl.sp.concept where subspecies aren't recognized) but their presumed introductory origin means that I just don't care all that much about their conservation status. Sorry if that offends people that do! I have the same feeling when people talk about conservation of New Guinea singing dog+dingo.
I suspect they are not valid but that aside, I quite agree with your latter opinion.

I do enjoy it when you enter debates condor. You actually know what you're talking about and it really raises the bar of the forum from the usual piffle.
 
This has become an excellent thread!

The deeper question is, does human influence on introduced populations effect conservation efforts?

My view here would be that the introduced populations are only valuable if, and only if, the original population has been depleted.
 
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jbnbsn99 said:
My view here would be that the introduced populations are only valuable if, and only if, the original population has been depleted.
that also is my view. If you extend that (with regards to the subject of this thread) and argue that the Moluccan rusa needs to be preserved, then what? If you eradicate what khakibob perceives as the introduced rusa (i.e. the Javan rusa) in the Moluccas, do you then re-introduce "pure" Moluccan rusa into an island eco-system where they don't belong? [Rhetorical question obviously, as we know my views on that ;)]

One could also argue that if more recently introduced Javan rusa have hybridised with Moluccan rusa, then that makes the Moluccan population even less worthy of preservation.
 
Thanks for the replies & discussion.Yes this is an interesting thread,the challenges of restoration & creating positions/policy always are.

In my humble experience,M rusa are different to the javans not just in size,or the smooth (not coarse)coat/pelage,their behaviour/ecology differs too.

They may not be the flavour of the month at the moment ,however I'm glad there are still at least two "pure" private collections with owners who value this little deer for several reasons.

I'll take it no one knows of any other populations of this or the other sub species elsewhere.If you do please mention it.

Thanks again
Khakibob
 
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