ZSL London Zoo New Western Lowland Male Gorilla

[Dassie rat]

New Western Lowland Male Gorilla » London Zoo

I agree with johnstoni that London Zoo should replace the gorillas with a group of bonobos. The only group of bonobos in the UK is at Twycross. Isis lists 176 in captivity, under a quarter of the number of captive western lowland gorillas.

Alternatively, the zoo could consider other apes, such as gibbons. Isis lists only 32 hoolock gibbons, 64 agile gibbons, 11 Bornean white-bearded gibbons, 5 dwarf siamangs, 82 Javan gibbons, 3 grey gibbons, 86 pileated gibbons, 6 black-crested gibbons, 121 buff-cheeked 'gabriellae' gibbons, 173 white-cheeked gibbons and 10 buff-cheeked 'siki' gibbons. Add all these together and the total is lower than the total number of captive western lowland gorillas.

 

[johnstoni.]

I think gibbons feature in their plans for the new tiger exhibit, and they already hold a pair of gibbons (in one of the old remaining Sobell cages unfortunately).

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

You may all think so ... but the reality on the ground is that ZSL runs an in situ conservation project for lowland gorillas. It is an integral part of the exhibit. But obviously some people have difficulty reading ... !

Hence, they consciously decided to go with lowland gorillas over and above orangs and chimps. End of story (no morning glory for you guys and girls)!!!

 

[Shirokuma]

You may all think so ... but the reality on the ground is that ZSL runs an in situ conservation project for lowland gorillas. It is an integral part of the exhibit. But obviously some people have difficulty reading ... !

Hence, they consciously decided to go with lowland gorillas over and above orangs and chimps. End of story (no morning glory for you guys and girls)!!!

For what it's worth, London could easily switch to bonobos and continue their in-situ work with gorillas. The films and information on this which can be viewed at the Gorilla Kingdom exhibit - which we have all read with no difficulty - could remain if the enclosure switched to bonobos as part of informing visitors of the wider context of ape conservation in Africa.

 

[Gary]

Gibbons would hardly be a replacement for Gorillas in anybody's estimation as a crowd puller!

Bonobos could be added as a seperate attraction-maybe on the Terraces-still sorely underused.

I was sad when the Orangs left London (spoke to a keeper at the time who said most of them didn't agree with the decision, although not sad to see the Chimps go (never liked them much-noisy brutal creatures).

I just can't believe that nobody did any tests of the new boy to check his little soldiers before they went through all the time and trouble to move him in, inadvertently leading to Tiny's death.

Someone somewhere deserves a rocket-it smacks to me of massive misjudgement rather than just sheer bad luck.

If there was another suitable young male from his original source, I would think there would be a chance they could integrate due to previous familiarity, and possibly if this male was neutered, it would mean no conflict would arise for dominance.

However, I bow to Pertinax in all matters Gorilla!

 

[johnstoni.]

The decision to focus on gorillas over orangs was not due to an in situ project, we are talking 1991, before this became common practice in zoos, and when London zoo was under threat of closure.

The last 1.1 chimpanzees left London to make way for Gorilla Kingdom, an exhibit that was justified in part due to its percieved ability to generate in situ funds for wild gorillas.

ZSL has in situ projects in a number of Central and West African countries, while I understand their need to continue generating funds for the project in the Gabon that focused on gorillas, I don't believe this binds ZSL into maintaining lowland gorillas at Regents Park regardless of losses.

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Would the Zoo be able to house two adult/sub-adult males?if so,they could probarly add another female and split the group into two-Kesho,Effie and Zaire and Mjukuu,new male and new female everyone's happy

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

What is the big deal? They have had some unfortunate spate of bad luck of late ... that in itself should never be a red light till exit.

The decision to go only with gorillas was consciously taken and was done on the basis of the then good breeding results of the group. It was within a general trend towards less species, more spaces ... and beyond that a realisation that you do not require all reps of a given family order in order to be able to tell a story or be of relevance to conservation education or other interests.

What surprises me is - which is not just confined to ZSL but having relevance to other collections too - that before transfer no breeding viability evaluation of a silverback takes place ...

 

[TARZAN]

What is the big deal? They have had some unfortunate spate of bad luck of late ... that in itself should never be a red light till exit.

The decision to go only with gorillas was consciously taken and was done on the basis of the then good breeding results of the group. It was within a general trend towards less species, more spaces ... and beyond that a realisation that you do not require all reps of a given family order in order to be able to tell a story or be of relevance to conservation education or other interests.

What surprises me is - which is not just confined to ZSL but having relevance to other collections too - that before transfer no breeding viability evaluation of a silverback takes place ...

What is the big deal?, I think the big deal is the fact that London Zoo have lost two adult male gorillas and also an infant male since the Gorilla Kingdom opened four years ago.We now have the situation where the third adult male gorilla may be/certainly is sterile. There was no one more pleased than myself to see this new exhibit open, also conscious of the substantial legacy of Delene Welch(London Zoo Volunteer) which financed this project, since the elephants and rhinos left the Casson Pavilion the zoo has certainly been in need of a center piece exhibit and Gorilla Kingdom has certainly filled this need in a 21st century way,I do not however think it is appropriate to start and discuss what we are going to house here next after almost writing off the gorillas as a bad job, given time and with the correct animals I am sure Gorilla Kingdom will at the end of the day prove to be a success, I would however love to see the orangs return to Regent's Park in their own new purpose built house, after the tigers perhaps? I would like to think so

 

[Dassie rat]

New Western Lowland Male Gorilla » London Zoo

I agree with Kifaru Bwana that the male should have been evluated before being sent to London. I wonder if London Zoo would have kept the gorillas if they hadn't bred in the 1980s - the decade when the first four babies were born. The problem concerns the five deaths since the 1980s and the fact that the only baby born since then is now dead. This doesn't seem to be a one-off incident. It's more of a case of some species doing better in some zoos than in others. Chessington World of Adventure has a far better recent breeding record for gorillas.

I understand the need to improve animal welfare at zoos. I have visited zoos where animals are still kept in concrete boxes or haven't got enough space to move about. In most cases, zoos have decreased the number of species, often leaving animals you can see in several zoos, while the seldom-seen species become even scarcer.

If London accepted that it doesn't need to keep or breed gorillas, which have a better breeding record in three other collections in south-east England, it could consider various other species. For example, how about keeping more species of amphibians, many of which are critically endangered?

I agree with Kifaru Bwana that a zoo doesn't need to keep all the representatives of a given family or order, but why do so many zoos keep the same representatives e.g. lions and tigers, rather than small cats and great apes, rather than gibbons? As many species as posible should be conserved with an aim to save as much natural habitat as possible so that bred animals can be reintroduced to the wild.

 

[Zambar]

Simple answer to that: The public. Yes, it's brilliant if zoos can create huge populations of rare, smaller species: And London seems to be doing very well on the herpetological front. But do you really think the public would accept 'Gibbon Kingdom' or 'Ocelot Terraces' as the drawcard exhibits? In the national zoo where it is hard to keep big ABC's adequately the zoo needs to draw as much attention to its gorillas and big cats as it's smaller jems in order to keep the punters satisfied, let alone the fact they are fascinating and impressive, as every animal is, at least to me. For every zoo enthusiast, there's about 200 average punters if not many more.

 

[Dassie rat]

New Western Lowland Male Gorilla » London Zoo

Zambar is right in saying that the average punters expect to see certain animals. People still think that London Zoo has elephants and some people get quite upset that the elephants are at Whipsnade, where they have bred, unlike the situation at London.

London has two meerkat enclosures (at one stage it had three), even though there are about 2,000 captive meerkats and the species isn't threatened. London has a good collection of reptiles and an impressive collection of corals, but the number of mammal species has plummeted from 220 50 years ago to about 70 today.

I think the main solution is trying to interest people in little-known species, which are being featured more frequently in books and television programmes. Zambar is right that gorillas will attract more visitors than will ocelots or gibbons, but this makes the assumption that London should keep the animals that people expect to see, rather than animals that could be kept, bred and reintroduced into the wild. It also assumes that visitors want to see the same species in several zoos, rather than seeing several different species in each zoo. I know which I prefer. My first visit to Antwerp in 1982 was a revelation - so many species that I hadn't seen before. My last visit in 2005 was a diappointment. The number of species had greatly decreased and a big chunk of the middle of the zoo had been removed for a hippo house, which didn't seem to have that much space for hippos.

If zoos co-ordinated their collections, they could mix the ABC animals with the rarities and offer visitors discount vouchers to visit zoos containing the animals that they had expected to see.

Despite this, it doesn't get away from the fact that gorillas have a very patchy record at London Zoo and the idea of carrying on keeping gorillas to keep the punters happy seems to me to be morally dubious, especially considering the high number of recent deaths.

 

[johnstoni.]

The decision to go only with gorillas was consciously taken and was done on the basis of the then good breeding results of the group

Once again, I'm sorry but you're wrong. The last breeding was in the mid-eighties. By the time ZSL opened Gorilla Kingdom, and sent the last two chimpanzees to Whipsnade, they had not bred gorillas for over twenty years.

 

[TARZAN]

Simple answer to that: The public. Yes, it's brilliant if zoos can create huge populations of rare, smaller species: And London seems to be doing very well on the herpetological front. But do you really think the public would accept 'Gibbon Kingdom' or 'Ocelot Terraces' as the drawcard exhibits? In the national zoo where it is hard to keep big ABC's adequately the zoo needs to draw as much attention to its gorillas and big cats as it's smaller jems in order to keep the punters satisfied, let alone the fact they are fascinating and impressive, as every animal is, at least to me. For every zoo enthusiast, there's about 200 average punters if not many more.

I agree with what you say but I think we must also remember that it is not justified to keep animals in an enclosure at a zoo just to satisfy Mr. Mondeo man and his family on their annual trip to the zoo because they expect to see certain species in the collection, that is if the enclosure the animals were housed in was sub standard. This is certainly not the case with Gorilla Kingdom, perhaps London did not breed gorillas for such a long time was due to the fact that their previous accommodation on the Sobell Pavilion was not ideal,could this be because when this pavilion was constructed in the early seventies the breeding of it's occupants was still not the main priority, the animals were certainly being exhibited a lot better than what they were in the old monkey house, famous resident of coarse being Guy., but was the breeding of these great apes seen at this time as a priority, I suggest no.

 

[gentle lemur]

I think ZSL should persevere with gorillas. The current building is far more suitable for gorillas than for bonobos, and it will be certainly be easier to find a healthy male gorilla than a whole group of bonobos.
ZSL has been unlucky, in my opinion: I don't think that there has been much wrong with their husbandry - although obviously with hindsight they would not take exactly the same decisions again.
Don't forget that it took John Aspinall many years to get his gorillas to breed, mainly because he did not have a healthy, mature and fertile male until Kisoro arrived on loan from Chicago. If Kesho can be rehomed in a few months time and a suitable male can be introduced immediately afterwards, the whole situation might be very different by Christmas 2012.

Alan

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Once again, I'm sorry but you're wrong. The last breeding was in the mid-eighties. By the time ZSL opened Gorilla Kingdom, and sent the last two chimpanzees to Whipsnade, they had not bred gorillas for over twenty years.

I was actually underlining that age for the former breeding success. I have not just crawled out of the neck of the woods mind you ... and have been around ZSL for a lot longer than you might care to think. But let us give it a rest will ya.


The importance here is that at some point people will come to appreciate the Gorilla Kingdom for what it is ... a great drawcard for ZSL/Regent's Park (as some people rightly point out - much as I myself would like to see zoos do loads of conservation breeding programmes for ultra rarities - the punters do like to see some of those infamous ABC).

I am sure that ZSL will in time be able to have a breeding and proven silverback on site at some point (and I probably mean ... no Kesho, but yet another new male).

 

[Pertinax]

I think ZSL should persevere with gorillas. The current building is far more suitable for gorillas than for bonobos, and it will be certainly be easier to find a healthy male gorilla than a whole group of bonobos.
ZSL has been unlucky, in my opinion: I don't think that there has been much wrong with their husbandry - although obviously with hindsight they would not take exactly the same decisions again.
If Kesho can be rehomed in a few months time and a suitable male can be introduced immediately afterwards, the whole situation might be very different by Christmas 2012.

Good summary Alan. I believe its still a simple case of yet more bad luck which could be rectified with one simple move- Kesho for another male. I believe that the females would simply accept yet another change of male- they are programmed to accept such upheavals in the wild and I don't think it would stress them unduly. More stressful(or unsatisfactory) probably is a permanent non-breeding situation if he stayed.

I did wonder if the desire to obtain Kesho quickly in an attempt (which failed) to integrate him before Mjuku gave birth, meant that some of the usual tests were not done, or were deferred till after he came over from Ireland. I don't know how they discovered he has Klinefelter's syndrome- would it be through a blood test?

 

[Pertinax]

As Pertinax said, gorillas were breeding in the 1980s, when four of London Zoo's five baby gorillas were born.

Only two babies were born in the 1980's in the then breeding group- the two young females, Kamilah and Asali who were later transferred to Belfast.

The previous two births were in the 1970's when London only had a 'pair' of Gorillas, Guy and Lomie- becuse Guy didn't breed, Lomie was sent on breeding loan to Bristol Zoo on two occassions resulting in the births of one female (Salome) and one male offspring. (See Gorillas Galore for full details).

 

[Pertinax]

Send Kesho to Paignton Zoo and in return Pertinax(the Gorilla)moves to ZSL.

I believe Pertinax was considered for London before Kesho was chosen. On paper it looks like a sensible move- Kesho is older than the other Paignton males so could take over there as the top-ranker. He would slot in more easily there than in a situation with older or similar aged males where it is often impossible to add a new male.

The downside of Pertinax is his much older age, handraised background and longterm housing( for many years now) without females. Would he be any use as a breeder? He also suffers ulcerated feet and is well settled to the 'quiet life' as Paignton's dominant male. He may not be regarded as genetically very important either, though I think in this case the need for a fertile, compatable male is probably the overriding issue here as long as its a male unrelated to the females.

I doubt they will move any of the females. I also doubt there would be exchanges with Howletts/PL though in recent years there have been some animal movements involving them. Your other suggestion of more than one group at London is impossible-the layout of the accomodation won't allow it, having been designed for exhibiting a single group of animals.

As always, there are plenty of eligible males in Europe, but the main problem would be rehoming Kesho (if he leaves) in a suitable situation, rather than being kept alone somewhere for the rest of his life.

 

[Jordan-Jaguar97]

Could he possibly become one of Longleat's new males when the new enclosure is built?