ZSL London Zoo New Western Lowland Male Gorilla
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Jordan-Jaguar97
Well-Known Member
Although if he does move to Longleat, it will take longer to establish a breeding group of Gorillas at ZSL.
I think the only option is to move Kesho to an all-male-group and bring in a new male. Keeping Kesho would waste 2 proven breeding females and it would be bad for thei rwell-being too, since raising infants is the best enrichment possible.
But it took Blackpool years to find a place for their non-reeding male Jitu, so I think for the next months/years, Kesho will stay where he is.
But it took Blackpool years to find a place for their non-reeding male Jitu, so I think for the next months/years, Kesho will stay where he is.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
Is there scientific evidence for this? As a very amateur observer of animal behaviour, I'd be interested to be referred to any relevant research.
My initial thoughts would have been that a self-aware, highly intelligent species, closely related to us, that invests years in the rearing of a single infant would be capable of experiencing grief at its death. It would be comforting to know for sure that this wasn't the case.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
I was actually underlining that age for the former breeding success. I have not just crawled out of the neck of the woods mind you ... and have been around ZSL for a lot longer than you might care to think. But let us give it a rest will ya.
The importance here is that at some point people will come to appreciate the Gorilla Kingdom for what it is ...
Oh, you meant they chose to go ahead with a new gorilla exhibit based on the breeding success they had in the 1980s? Possibly, though as you say I think it had more to do with showcasing their in situconservation work and the fact that many of the larger 'ABC' mammals had already left the collection. I didn't mean to make you defensive, I don't mean any harm when correcting someone, and I don't hold it against anyone when I'm corrected. We all strive for facts on here, right?
Well, what Gorilla Kingdom 'is' is open to interpretation. You could call it a world-class gorilla conservation centre, or you could call it an expensive moated grass paddock with indoor day room and night dens for an as-yet unsuccessful group of gorillas. I appreciate Gorilla Kingdom as an improvement on the Sobell but, even if some young are born and reared, I will feel the way I do about many open gorilla exhibits - way too much hotwire, open-space which most gorillas dislike, and far, far, too much floor-to-ceiling glass viewing for a group of these apes to feel comfortable. But thats just my opinion. I don't think I've a less-refined interpretation of the exhibit than those 'in the know', but equally I don't believe those who champion it are naive. I just disagree.
My guess is ZSL probably feel that way too(longterm).
Yes, the problem is usually in finding a suitable place for the outgoing male. It seems generally accepted nowadays that a stranger silverback will only fit into a male group if the other members are younger(viz Jitu at Valencia, and soon Ya Kwanza from Jersey and the 4 young Stuttgart males). It may well take a considerable while to reorganise things for Kesho but I'd be happy just to know that's their longterm plan- shortterm things are probably okay as they are.
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I know of no such research but possibly there has been. I don't know how we could measure whether these Apes feel sadness/grief in such situations, to a greater or lesser degree, or not at all. Mother primates of many species whose babies have died frequently carry them around for some days after death- sometimes its difficult to get the mother to give up the baby, in others she eventually loses interest and abandons it. This has certainly been recorded in wild Mountain Gorillas, as well as captive Lowlands. But is this just a continuation of strong maternal behaviour, a bond rather than exhibiting true grief?
There is also a trend nowadays to deliberately let the mother see/hold a dead baby- as in Mjuku's case- so she can accept the loss more easily- this is quite a recent innovation- probably unheard of in e.g. the 1980's. What does seem apparent is that in nature there seems little time for a grieving process- if it exists in that form. The animals are soon mating again, in order to replace the loss that has occurred.
Gigit
Well-Known Member
Presumably keepers can notice any changes in behaviour that indicate distress, but you could be right about maternal behaviour. Thinking about that, and the fact that mating occurs soon after, raises all sorts of questions about innate behaviour, social behaviour, biological urges, and do they know that mating leads to babies? Some Googling is required!
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Now its a single group again, does anyone know if London Gorillas are still shut outside in the daytime, or are they given 'freechoice' to come and go indoors/outdoors nowadays?
I think they just get on with it! Its the same with Garden birds- a nest gets destroyed or the chicks predated and a couple of days later you see the parents carrying nesting material to start a fresh nest. Do they grieve over their loss at all, or less than an intelligent Great Ape or Elephant might? I don't know but I believe that at all levels these are instinctive/biological activities programmed into them.