Wildlife Heritage Foundation News from WHF

it's not inbreeding if you know the genetic line of the animals - white tigers - yes horribly inbred and artificially created - The White Lions prides mentioned (by GWPT and Others) - and I don't get my info from just one source that wouldn't be rigourous would it now! - produced the white varients naturally in the wild without any interferance from mankind - that was still happening up until they were hunted from the areas concerned - so it is a natural recessive allele and is obviously carried by more Tawny lions than previously thought. Bringing in a white female to mate with a white male from another pride is not inbreeding as they will not be related.
Now I admit that I don't know the heritage of Themba at WHF so I'm happy to find that out but it's unlikely he'll be related to two new females coming in from South Africa - but again if you know better feel free to prove as much.

Karoocheetah- I think they may have some connections down the line- I remember about the time when Themba's mother Kya (?) arrived she was just over two years old, she came from South Africa and was born in 2006. I would prefer if WHF did bring in a tawny colored female* but who carries the white gene- everybody's happy! :D

* On saying that, a few females in New Zealand (Not Zion WG!!) carry the white gene and speaking to another Zoochatter recently, she is Tawny and carries the white gene through her father's side.
 
it's not inbreeding if you know the genetic line of the animals - white tigers - yes horribly inbred and artificially created - The White Lions prides mentioned (by GWPT and Others) - and I don't get my info from just one source that wouldn't be rigourous would it now! - produced the white varients naturally in the wild without any interferance from mankind - that was still happening up until they were hunted from the areas concerned - so it is a natural recessive allele and is obviously carried by more Tawny lions than previously thought. Bringing in a white female to mate with a white male from another pride is not inbreeding as they will not be related.
Now I admit that I don't know the heritage of Themba at WHF so I'm happy to find that out but it's unlikely he'll be related to two new females coming in from South Africa - but again if you know better feel free to prove as much.

I agree, if the genetic history of the animals in question can be veryfied then the breeding of white lions is most definitely justified. However, as far as I am aware there is no stud book information collated on white lions in captivity. Themba's origins are dubious and it is very likely that the two new females are being sourced from the same 'breeder' as Themba's parents.
 
Probably being bought from the same place as the last lot, nothing like supporting canned hunting by shipping over highly inbred low quality animals.

.::Projects::.
 
Thanks for that- It does seem that's either where Paradise or West Midlands got them from. Saying that at least Paradise have the brains to only breed them once, and that's still bad but, West Midlands have gone to far.
 
Thanks for that- It does seem that's either where Paradise or West Midlands got them from. Saying that at least Paradise have the brains to only breed them once, and that's still bad but, West Midlands have gone to far.

No offence to you, but they shouldn't be breeding them at all. A conservation organisation doesn't fund hunting outfitters and breed animals it knows to be already inbred, especially when the animals concerned that already exist in the UK have shown, at some point in their lives, suspected genetic problems.

It doesn't matter how it gets dressed up or advertised, it's fundamentally wrong.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if its from the same place, as they definately seem to have good connections there.

The whole thing is just dissapointing really, such good work could be done somewhere else, huge shame, I do have to say and i've said it before, zoos who support organisations such as this I really do not take seriously.
 
This may seem a bit naiive, but here goes:
White lions are a colour variation [a mutation] like white Tigers or blue Budgerigars. They can no more claim subspecific status than a ginger haired person like me; I'm an erythristic color variant, who would be at a slight disadvantage in a 'natural' setting, in that my skin is more sensitive to sunlight than the dominant darker haired 'normal' form
None of this detracts from any aesthetic appreciation we might have for these species, BUT they are of no conservation significance and can be left to persist in 'hidden' recessive form without necessarily dying out. Some years ago, Chester's colony of Patagonian Conures produced the occasional Lutino [red-eyed yellow] offspring. These were quite properly handed over to the private sector as irrelevant to the zoo's job of maintaining the wild phenotype.
 
This may seem a bit naiive, but here goes:
White lions are a colour variation [a mutation] like white Tigers or blue Budgerigars. They can no more claim subspecific status than a ginger haired person like me; I'm an erythristic color variant, who would be at a slight disadvantage in a 'natural' setting, in that my skin is more sensitive to sunlight than the dominant darker haired 'normal' form
None of this detracts from any aesthetic appreciation we might have for these species, BUT they are of no conservation significance and can be left to persist in 'hidden' recessive form without necessarily dying out. Some years ago, Chester's colony of Patagonian Conures produced the occasional Lutino [red-eyed yellow] offspring. These were quite properly handed over to the private sector as irrelevant to the zoo's job of maintaining the wild phenotype.

Unfortunately I think some of your logic is flawed. White lions are not a mutation as IS the case with white tigers. The are a phenotypical response to the area in which they used to reside. White lions in the wild are not the snow white attractions seen at West Midlands Safari Park, they are much more subtle than that. In the middle of the dry season in the dry sandy river beds and parched grasslands the 'white' lions are often better camouflaged than their tawny neighbours, indeed observations have shown they have a distinct advantage over their tawny counterparts in relation to hunting success.

Also they DO have hugely significant conservation value. Conservation is not solely about scientific research and DNA analysis. Conservation HAS to encompass the environment in which the animals live, the eco system as a whole and that includes human beings and cultural significance as well as animal/human conflict.

The white lion has huge cultural importance to the native Africans in the Timbavati area. In an age when we bemoan and criticise our ancestors forced 'civilisation' of native Americans, Aborigines, Maoris, etc, then we are not learning lessons from history if we allow trophy hunting from a predominantly white society to remove the white lion, or indeed any lion, from native African lives.

Therefore, if, in conjunction with scientific research, we can increase the number of white lions to a point where they can be left to share the land with their tawny counterparts and let nature take it's course, free from trophy hunting and poaching, then it is very worthwhile in my humble opinion.

I would argue though that it is folly to claim that captive bred animals may one day be released in the wild. Captive bred animals should provide a DNA insurance policy should something disastrous happen in the wild. This is why, in addition to congenital problems, breeding inbred animals makes no sense at all.
 
Ok my UK brethren, can the American cat guy throw in his two cents worth?
Here are just random thoughts on the topic in no particular order (which may or may not be significant).

While European and South American zoos seem to be breeding white lions at a fairly consistent rate, I find it interesting that no one in the United States is doing it anymore. Philadelphia Zoo had the first white lions in this country and produced the first white cubs. They are now establishing a normal colored pairing, per the SSP, to replace their aging white and heterzygous pride which will soon pass away of old age. Sigfried and Roy were the main breeders of white lions (and white tigers), but since their show stopped after Roy's accident I do not think they are breeding anymore? A couple Ohio zoos have the only other white lions in the US that I know of, but I am pretty sure they are not breeding either.

It may be possible to discover that Timbavati lions (both white and normal) or more likely Kruger area lions (both white and normal) are a distinct subspecies. (I personally doubt it, but it is possible). But to say that white lions (only) are a subspecies is of course ridiculous because both white and typical are born in the same litters.

As a cat lover and photographer, I personally like to see as many varieties of cats in captivity as possible, including different color morphs. So I have no problem with RESPONSIBLE breeding of white lions and white tigers (and my favorite animal in the world, king cheetahs). Responsible means breeding unrelated individuals, which means breeding white with typical colored animals. The only way to increase the gene pool is to bring in typical colored lions (not even heterozygous) and cross with whites and then breed unrelated offspring. The problem from the perspective of zoos that want to profit off whites is that this program necessitates producing more normal colored offspring than white offspring (just as happens in the wild). Sadly, it seems no one is willing to do that, but that is the way to ensure healthy white offspring in the long run.

Saying whites cannot survive to adulthood in the wild is also a fallacy. Hunting records from the early 1900's in India clearly show that several adult white tigers were taken from the wild. Jim Corbett even filmed one. Since white tigers stand out more from their counterparts than white lions do from theirs, I do not see why white lions could not survive. In fact, while the cubs are bright white, the adults are more of an ivory color, so not that different from the others.

When I was photographing white lions at Cincinnati Zoo with a flash, I noticed an interesting phenomenon. With cats, including typical lions, a flash produces the green eye effect from reflecting off the tapetum lucidum (a reflective layer cats have for night vision). The white lions, however, had red eye, which I take to mean they are missing the tapetum lucidom. Since the white coat would be cooler in the day, I speculated with a senior staff member there if it could be an adaptation for hunting in the daytime? He said it is possible but of course there is no way to know. Just food for thought.
 
It may be possible to discover that Timbavati lions (both white and normal) or more likely Kruger area lions (both white and normal) are a distinct subspecies. (I personally doubt it, but it is possible). But to say that white lions (only) are a subspecies is of course ridiculous because both white and typical are born in the same litters..

this is what I can't get my head around about white lions being a subspecies, when there are two different coloured lions in the litters.

Is it just the whites that are a sub-species, or is the cats from that particular region? If its the cats from that region then calling them white lions will create confusion in the unknowledgable like me.
 
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If it is proved at all it'll more than likely be the kalahari sub species rather than just white lions - it's just that the white are more emotive and can be used to create a story for funding more than the tawny ones alone can. But yes you are right - the gene for whiteness resides in the Kalahari/Timbavati region lions and as such isn't a distinct subspecies alone.
 
So why must places like Paradise Wildlife Park (and indeed every other collection to have white lions) breed the white ones together? This is one of the points that I am getting at, it is for one unatural, lions will mate with lions regardless of colour. So why don't they breed them with other tawny lions from the same area? Or if you really want to increase diversity with other lions from other regions?
 
this is what I can't get my head around about white lions being a subspecies, when there are two different coloured lions in the litters.

Is it just the whites that are a sub-species, or is the cats from that particular region? If its the cats from that region then calling them white lions will create confusion in the unknowledgable like me.

I think it is the lions of the area that they want to class as a sub species because as you rightly point out lions of both colours are produced in one litter. I think the arguement holds merit as no other lions in Africa that I am aware of produce white cubs so there is something different going on. In addition, sub species status would get them on the ICUN red list and offer them more protection.
 
So why must places like Paradise Wildlife Park (and indeed every other collection to have white lions) breed the white ones together? This is one of the points that I am getting at, it is for one unatural, lions will mate with lions regardless of colour. So why don't they breed them with other tawny lions from the same area? Or if you really want to increase diversity with other lions from other regions?

Because cute white cubs with a good story bring punters through the door.
 
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