Twycross Zoo Noorjahan Finally Pregnant
- Thread starter JamesB
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zoogiraffe
Well-Known Member
Whipsnade don`t seem to have had as many of the problems with her that Twycross did.Maybe that worked out better for her moving to Whipsnade
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I wonder why, she is in a herd with adult females, older than she is thus making her staus lower, perhaps submissiveness? Anyway hope it works out for her breeding plan,
Karishma has lost her mother and her support and the "princess"-status she had in the Twycross herd. Now she is the youngest and lowest-ranking female and her self-confidence is probably much lower then in Twycross - which makes it much easier for the keepers to dominate her, especially when they are more strict (or should I say more cruel?) and more self-confident then the keeper crew in Twycross. I do not think that this is a good solution, certainly not for Karishma who has lost her family which is very traumatic for a young female elephant, but neither for the keepers in Whipsnade. Experience with similar cases has shown that the effects of moving a so-called problem elephant does not last; Karishma will make friends in the Whipsnade herd, she will get more confident again, she will probably have a calf to protect in a few years. And then she will become a problem for the keepers and a danger again.
Why do people always need to make assumptions that elephant keepers are cruel?
It's no different to training a pet.
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Because I have seen a lot of elephant trainers using training methods I call cruel. Beating elephants with the metal end of the bullhook, for example. I have been at Whipsnade and their elephant handlers are definately on the "rough" side, not just carrying the bullhook, but using it all the time (and not gently, but with force).
What do you think have they done to make Karishma - an elephant who was no longer obying to her trainers in Twycross - the well-behaved elephant she is at the moment? Offering her treats and saying "good girl, please do what we want"? I have no inside knowledge of Whipsnade so I don`t know what exactly they have done with Karishma, but I know enough about free contact training to know that it had nothing to do with treats and praise. More likely with chains and bullhooks. There are many cases where elephant keepers admitted how to bring an elephant "back on track" - chain it on all 4 legs and beat it with bullhooks until it obeys again.
What do you think have they done to make Karishma - an elephant who was no longer obying to her trainers in Twycross - the well-behaved elephant she is at the moment? Offering her treats and saying "good girl, please do what we want"? I have no inside knowledge of Whipsnade so I don`t know what exactly they have done with Karishma, but I know enough about free contact training to know that it had nothing to do with treats and praise. More likely with chains and bullhooks. There are many cases where elephant keepers admitted how to bring an elephant "back on track" - chain it on all 4 legs and beat it with bullhooks until it obeys again.
Are their training methods really cruel to the individual elephant or is it perceived cruel by you as a spectator. I think that is a valid question!
(Yassa) In most instances I do respect your opinion, but you are really taking it too far here. Elephants are not humans and it is no way to come up with anthropomorphous assessments of elephant behaviour or experience of keeper-elephant situations.
For one, I can vouch that the protected contact method does have its down-sides as those elephants never having experienced the (infamous) mahout's hook are far more difficult to handle than those that have yet had open contact training with keepers. The keeper training in the open contact context is by no means cruel and serves a purpose.
Contrary to this the elephant training methods used in SE Asian forestry to dominate a young elephant and elephant herds can be contested to be of questionable purpose for elephant-human accepted contacts.
I wish you would not confuse these 2 quite diverse methods (captivity/zoo vs. mahout/forestry) of training or their individual setting. They are not alike. On top of that to conclude that elephant keepers are cruel towards their individual charges is ludicruous beyond belief and sells these experienced keepers short.
Besides to be an elephant keeper you require authority, diligence and a deep understanding of elephant behaviour and ecology. If not you will never become an elephant keeper let alone stay one for a considerable amount of time.
I rest my case.
I really do not want to start a discussion about the pros and cons of free contact vs. protected contact here. So I will keep it short and yes, I absolutely believe a lot of things that happen in free contact training in western zoos are cruel and I have a met a number of elephant keepers in the last years who think the same and not that this is "ludicruous beyond belief".
I don't think anyone wants to start a debate over FC vs PC etc, it's just the fact that you instantly assumed that all elephant trainers are cruel, when it comes down to the fact that if you mistreat an elephant it'll kill you in seconds.
And to be honest, I don't really think hitting a 5 ton piece of muscle with a tiny metal hook is going to hurt it that much, and I've never seen them using the ankus forcefully on the elephants anyway.
And to be honest, I don't really think hitting a 5 ton piece of muscle with a tiny metal hook is going to hurt it that much, and I've never seen them using the ankus forcefully on the elephants anyway.
Not so. They will often tolerate a great deal. The bull elephant 'Tembo' in the famous Chipperfield 'cruelty' video just cowered while he was being hit repeatedly with a shovel.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
Has there been cases of any injury claims? just wondering, because the method of using the ankulus also takes quite a bite of skill not it injury according to this documentery in Thailand's Lampang camp,
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
That is a good example, though I think they are more so unpredictable, there was an elephant in a Kerala Pooram ( procession) spectators can give particular elephants money, when one unlucky did and touch their tusk, then the bull elephant went on a rampage, and ended up killing 3 people, the guys on elephant star, I remember said that he had just come out of his Musth period and they can experince aftershocks, must know what their talking about for they are the owners of majestic bull elephants.
Yeah I guess
Surprising that is though.
That's not to say Elephants don't remember mistreatment and do something about it at a later or more opportune moment. There have been many reputed cases of elephants 'bearing grudges' against keepers and mahouts and killing them as a result. But is there any truth in this, or is the elephant that attacks/kills a keeper just being mean on that particular day? We can't ask the elephants unfortunately
Hello Yassa,
You are misinterpreting my comments here. My comments are not to distinguish between protected and free contact, my comments were based around the fact that most elephant keepers cannot be termed cruel nor are the methods used by them to work with their elephants to be termed cruel.
Elephants can and need to be restrained for several purposes and yes this can be accomplished without physically damaging their charges. The ankus in itself is not a weapon, but a means to demonstrate the elephants in their care what is required.
For sure, captive elephant training and management can be improved and it is exactly for this reason that these days elephant keepers have organised themselves in the Elephant Keepers Management Association.
But I will continue to contest that elephant keepers by their very nature are cruel towards their elephant charges. In this respect, you are talking incidents at perhaps a fraction of all individual zoos keeping elephants in Europe. Besides by acting on assumptions and hearsay ... you are crossing a dangerous line. I prefer to talk and work with the keepers to improve their captive management and not by .. what I am inclined or led to believe. It might help to associate sometime with the EKMA people ....!
Jelle, we have to agree that we disagree on this topic although, I never said I think elephant keepers by their very nature were cruel!! By the way, i did not misinterpretate your comments, I just wanted to make clear what I think. And I stand behind each word I wrote.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
Origins of taming elephants ( in India and such) work like a child. I saw on this documentery that everytime it behaves badly they said they whack it and something good food and affection, perhaps this was passed down to keepers in the western world?
Then again elephants are beaten truly out of preportion as well. The current king of all elephant processions Thechikottukavu Ramachandran, got into a fight with one of the major shrine holders at the time ( now deceased) Thiruvambadi Chandrashekaran (Late)
I don't know how badly the fight actually was..... but since Raman ran amuck his main mahout punished and whacked him so severly he lost sight in his right eye,
Then again elephants are beaten truly out of preportion as well. The current king of all elephant processions Thechikottukavu Ramachandran, got into a fight with one of the major shrine holders at the time ( now deceased) Thiruvambadi Chandrashekaran (Late)
I don't know how badly the fight actually was..... but since Raman ran amuck his main mahout punished and whacked him so severly he lost sight in his right eye,
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting discussion. Sure, we shouldn't be anthropomorphic here, but then we should be equally mindful that humans don't have a monopoly on distress, and long-term mental trauma as the result of abuse. Elephants don't "sometimes need" to be restrained or controlled in western culture....they were brought here for our curiosity and entertainment, remember, and only recently have these arguably institutionalised individuals still alive in our zoos been brought together in more natural social groupings by progressive minds and organisations working to maintain the captive herd in a way which is currently acceptable (ie breeding instead of cull/logging camp infant imports). Some cultures might rely on elephants to do important work, and this is not a comment of their use of them. Let's just remember that nobody 'needs' to train or restrain and elephant in a zoo, it is the lack of space in many cases that means free contact allows for some aspects of better husbandry and (sometimes) the opportunity to walk your animals outside of their enclosure.
But Yassa is right, free contact involves dominating the animal. Good keepers will be able to do this without losing control or showing outright aggression/violence, but there are always some keepers from time to time who lack the confidence to do this 'well'. Today this is far less so, but the risk of grudges and residual mental triggers to react to keepers following incidents often years before is well known.
Most of the 1980's ZSL asian elephants, (now at Whipsnade and one at chester) exhibit some degree of head-weaving or other behaviour indicative of some mental trauma or stress. Births have been difficult, with stillbirths, calf rejections and adult deaths resulting from some of the pregnancies. Although the captive environment can often be attributed to the current statistics for Asian elephant breeding, it is interesting to note that African elephants have lower incidences of most of the above, and coincidentally tend to be managed in protected contact situations. For those that are managed by free contact, very few of these are trained in the way that young asian elephants are.
But Yassa is right, free contact involves dominating the animal. Good keepers will be able to do this without losing control or showing outright aggression/violence, but there are always some keepers from time to time who lack the confidence to do this 'well'. Today this is far less so, but the risk of grudges and residual mental triggers to react to keepers following incidents often years before is well known.
Most of the 1980's ZSL asian elephants, (now at Whipsnade and one at chester) exhibit some degree of head-weaving or other behaviour indicative of some mental trauma or stress. Births have been difficult, with stillbirths, calf rejections and adult deaths resulting from some of the pregnancies. Although the captive environment can often be attributed to the current statistics for Asian elephant breeding, it is interesting to note that African elephants have lower incidences of most of the above, and coincidentally tend to be managed in protected contact situations. For those that are managed by free contact, very few of these are trained in the way that young asian elephants are.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I can where your coming from johnstoni, elephants are in my opinion gods of nature, and where ever should be treated as pretigious guests, as with any other animal,
Many fragments I find the web say that when an animal misbehaves we don't punish it, but rather just when it gives good behaviour rewards are given,
Many fragments I find the web say that when an animal misbehaves we don't punish it, but rather just when it gives good behaviour rewards are given,