North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

I know Toledo has an ai born girl calf, but considering their 2 cows are geriatric and post reproductive and their younger adult bull has questionable reproductive abilities, they are certainly a facility with a likelihood of committing to elephants longer term. As we were discussing this on this thread when 2025 started, a user said they heard speculation about them building a brand new complex within their current parking space and main entrance because I think they are working construction encompassing a new parking lot and entry on the other side of the avenue besides the zoo so it can expand westward.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I know Toledo has an ai born girl calf, but considering their 2 cows are geriatric and post reproductive and their younger adult bull has questionable reproductive abilities, they are certainly a facility with a likelihood of committing to elephants longer term. As we were discussing this on this thread when 2025 started, a user said they heard speculation about them building a brand new complex within their current parking space and main entrance because I think they are working construction encompassing a new parking lot and entry on the other side of the avenue besides the zoo so it can expand westward.
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Where was it stated that both cows are post-reproductive? If anything, I've heard chatter that they may give Renee one final go considering her demonstrated remarkable reproductive health/ability.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I know Toledo has an ai born girl calf, but considering their 2 cows are geriatric and post reproductive and their younger adult bull has questionable reproductive abilities, they are certainly a facility with a likelihood of committing to elephants longer term. As we were discussing this on this thread when 2025 started, a user said they heard speculation about them building a brand new complex within their current parking space and main entrance because I think they are working construction encompassing a new parking lot and entry on the other side of the avenue besides the zoo so it can expand westward.
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Toledo has not given any indication that they plan to expand their elephant complex anytime soon, and nor do I anticipate they'll need to for several years yet. Their complex is small but perfectly suitable for the animals they do have, especially once Twiggy is fully reintegrated and when Ajani is introduced. As was stated earlier this year, they're not at risk of reaching their capacity for a long while.
It feels more likely that they'll rehaul Tembo Trail and the surrounding exhibits, space allowing and in the event their current animals survive, when Kirkja is closer to reproductive age and when a hypothetical second Renee calf would be on the ground. It would really only be then that they would need extra room to bring in a bull of stronger reproductive promise to breed Kirkja. Until then, there is little need to uproot an extremely popular section of the zoo for a group that is far from demanding the space.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It feels more likely that they'll rehaul Tembo Trail and the surrounding exhibits, space allowing and in the event their current animals survive, when Kirkja is closer to reproductive age and when a hypothetical second Renee calf would be on the ground. It would really only be then that they would need extra room to bring in a bull of stronger reproductive promise to breed Kirkja. Until then, there is little need to uproot an extremely popular section of the zoo for a group that is far from demanding the space.
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From the pics and vids I've seen of the enclosure, I know their barn space is lovely, but the outdoor enclosure still looks kinda cramped for longer term holding in my personal opinion. A news article about the new parking lot construction does have a sentence stating it'll entail overhauling the current elephant and rhino facilities. So i think you made a valid speculation about them 'rehauling' Tembo Trail. That and Kirkja's presence mark key indicators that Toledo will still gravitate towards elephants longer term.

"That includes construction of a second tunnel beneath railroad tracks. That will, consequently, require a redesign of the rhino and elephant exhibits, Mr. Sailer said."

The Toledo Blade
 
The Horse Boy said:
I know Toledo has an ai born girl calf, but considering their 2 cows are geriatric and post reproductive and their younger adult bull has questionable reproductive abilities, they are certainly a facility with a likelihood of committing to elephants longer term. As we were discussing this on this thread when 2025 started, a user said they heard speculation about them building a brand new complex within their current parking space and main entrance because I think they are working construction encompassing a new parking lot and entry on the other side of the avenue besides the zoo so it can expand westward.
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where was it mentioned that Ajani is not reproductive? He’s only 20 and been there only two years. He would be a great mate for Renee and Kirkja for several years.
 
ZCChip said:
where was it mentioned that Ajani is not reproductive? He’s only 20 and been there only two years. He would be a great mate for Renee and Kirkja for several years.
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He has low sperm and has struggled with his "aim" so to speak. The low sperm count was revealed in an AZA newsletter surrounding the African Elephant SSP and his behavioral struggles have been mentioned a few times by other users.
 
ZCChip said:
@The Horse Boy you should be a zoo architect!
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I like your opinion, but i feel it would still be a lot easier for me to be a guide, interpreter at an accredited zoo. Plus plans with tembo trail will ultimately be up to the zoo head hochos, not me. I still really like your overall suggestion of me working at an AZA facility.
 
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Hyak_II said:
To preface, Bluebonnet gets on just fine with Rasha and Belle, always had, the issue is purely Rasha and Angel (as mentioned). Since the two aren’t compatible, Fort Worth opted to split Bluebonnet from Rasha since BB *is* socially compatible with Angel.

Truthfully this is a decision that has always baffled me, subjectively it would make much more sense to send angel out elsewhere and simply maintain the matriarchal herd intact, as opposed to having worry about maintaining this non-breeding cow who will never be able to be integrated to the main herd and shuffling around animals to and from the main herd.
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(Adding this here as not to clog the main thread)

The entire situation with Angel is very strange. What's odd is that even two years ago she still had a breeding reccomendation with Romeo, when she would've been 34...very far out of her reproductive window for a first calf. I can't help but wonder if she had a stillbirth and/or miscarriage sometime in recent years that went unannounced, and perhaps she still technically is fertile due to that factor.
I only say this because her still having a reccomendation over a decade past when cows typically have their first calves is uncharacteristic. Other cows of similar ages and circumstances (Chandra, Jati, etc) all had/have explicit "Do Not Breed" reccomendations.
 
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Frankie_number_1_fan said:
(Adding this here as not to clog the main thread)

The entire situation with Angel is very strange. What's odd is that even two years ago she still had a breeding reccomendation with Romeo, when she would've been 34...very far out of her reproductive window for a first calf. I can't help but wonder if she had a stillbirth and/or miscarriage sometime in recent years that went unannounced, and perhaps she still technically is fertile due to that factor.
I only say this because her still having a reccomendation over a decade past when cows typically have their first calves is uncharacteristic. Other cows of similar ages and circumstances (Chandra, Jati, etc) all had/have explicit "Do Not Breed" reccomendations.
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It somewhat makes if Angel has/had a series of stillbirth and/or miscarriage that never went announced considering Rasha had a stillborn female calf in 2003 that never was reported, at least according to the elephantdatabase.
 
I’ve been told by a fairly reliable source that Angel has bred before, she just hasn’t been able to produce a viable calf as it stands.

Of course without any official records, always take something like that with a grain of salt, but it does strike me as awfully unusual as well that a cow in her mid-30s would still be getting recommendations to breed if she hasn’t at least managed to produce one or two near term stillborns at the minimum
 
Back to the topic of post reproductive herd facilities, I know I read a couple posts on this site (including one on this thread last fall) that once the only cow at the Maryland Zoo in Baltimore, Felix, passes or moves to TES, they plan on converting their facility into a bachelor holder. I'm not sure if they're still hellbent on that agenda or not. Their exhibit is probably better off holdings bull group than breeding given that they have three smallish outdoor enclosures and a smaller barn. Arguably they're going down that road already with 1 elder bull and 1 late teenage bull being housed together currently.
 
The FW Zoo needs to worry about the two boys! Plus two bulls. And focus on building a matrilineal family with Rasha’s daughters. And there is Colonel Tusk. Why isn’t he being utilized?
 
Do you think
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
From what I recall Colonel is a behavioral non-breeder. I believe he's attempted to mount cows before but never really got it right.
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Is it maybe because he wasn't exposed to natual breeding in his formative years and didn't get the appropiate mentorship like a lot of these bulls? I've said earlier this year that Colonel is better off as another bachelor mentor or geriatric cow comrade at other facilities like Denver Audubon Dickerson, possibly Bronx or even LA if they had asains available to replace Billy and Tina when they moved to Tulsa, and there still will be available Asians to move in the immediate future- or even an upcoming brand new facility such as San Antonio- if he truly has no prospect of fertility left.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Do you think

Is it maybe because he wasn't exposed to natual breeding in his formative years and didn't get the appropiate mentorship like a lot of these bulls? I've said earlier this year that Colonel is better off as another bachelor mentor or geriatric cow comrade at other facilities like Denver Audubon Dickerson, possibly Bronx or even LA if they had asains available to replace Billy and Tina when they moved to Tulsa, and there still will be available Asians to move in the immediate future- or even an upcoming brand new facility such as San Antonio- if he truly has no prospect of fertility left.
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His up bringing was that of a circus elephant, he was the first calf born at the African Lion Safari, saw one calf be born Nikolai, and potentially saw Tusko breed his other Whimpy, considering he left in 1993 if he did it clearly wasn't enough to stick. But from their he never had a stable social life until 2013 when he arrived at Fort Worth.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
His up bringing was that circus he was the first calf born at the African Lion Safari, saw one calf be born Nikolai, and potentially saw Tusko breed his other Whimpy, considering he left in 1993 if he did it clearly wasn't enough to stick. But from their he never had a stable social life until 2013 when he arrived at Fort Worth.
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I thought he was born at endangered ark?

Honestly it’s no big loss that he’s not a natural breeder. He is fairly well represented on both sides. Plus they need to be breeding his sisters from Whimpy. Send them to zoos with compatible males asap!
 
ZCChip said:
I thought he was born at endangered ark?

Honestly it’s no big loss that he’s not a natural breeder. He is fairly well represented on both sides. Plus they need to be breeding his sisters from Whimpy. Send them to zoos with compatible males asap!
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On his mother's side he has numerous half siblings, and other relatives, but on his father's side he only has a half brother meaning he is still somewhat genetically valuable.
 
ZCChip said:
Honestly it’s no big loss that he’s not a natural breeder. He is fairly well represented on both sides.
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He's one of the only two surviving offspring of his wildborn father, and currently neither him nor his half brother Obert have any offspring, and that fact doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon fkr either of them. Despite his mother's side being decently well represented he absolutely has a lot of underutilized genetic value. It would be nice to see him sire a calf via AI.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I've said earlier this year that Colonel is better off as another bachelor mentor or geriatric cow comrade at other facilities like Denver Audubon Dickerson, possibly Bronx or even LA if they had asains available to replace Billy and Tina when they moved to Tulsa, and there still will be available Asians to move in the immediate future- or even an upcoming brand new facility such as San Antonio- if he truly has no prospect of fertility left.
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Personally I don't see much of a reason to move him from Fort Worth so long as they have space for him. I'm unsure how often he is mixed with the cows but as of two years ago he was reccomended to breed them all minus Rasha. Obviously not much luck on his part in the decade he has been there but still.

He would likely make a good mentor bull, but so would almost any other bull in the region so long as they're decently socially savvy. I'd much rather see a well represented male like Doc or Johnson be placed in such a spot down the road. The only facility that would likely have room for him would be Denver, and a bull with much more proper social experience would likely be a better fit there. He doesn't need to be anywhere other than where he currently is imo.
 
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