North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I imagine Howletts was all for it. They had plans to send their elephants back to Africa and release them.
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That was about 4 years ago. Idk if it's sc ditched now or not. Speaking of Howlett's, although needless to say the US has many different African matrilines in several different facilities scattered across the nation (Sedgwick and Omaha being the most plentiful), that could be a European zoo for the US to look to if they wanted to take in an import with Africans down the line, like with the new Brookfield and Memphis complexes. Howlett's has stopped breeding elephants a few years back according to a @ZCChip post on the African European news thread, so that is definitely a possibility if they consider phasing out there program. I feel the UK has experienced a significant decline in elephants holders in recent decades.
 
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HawkAlot said:
New On the topic of imports, I never see much chatter about Tutume at Granby. Given that Granby is planning on getting out of elephants, I'm curious to see if he'll eventually be shipped south. Same with the male at Parc Safari.
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I know Granby emphatically stated they will phase out due to that upcoming law banning elephant keeping in Canada. I don't even know why Canadian legislators are planning to ban elephant breeding let alone overall holding altogether.
 
The Horse Boy said:
That was about 4 years ago. Idk if it's sc ditched now or not. Speaking of Howlett's, although needless to say the US has many different African matrilines in several different facilities scattered across the nation (Sedgwick and Omaha being the most plentiful), that could be a European zoo for the US to look to if they wanted to take in an import with Africans down the line, like with the new Brookfield and Memphis complexes. Howlett's has stopped breeding elephants a few years back according to a @ZCChip post on the African European news thread, so that is definitely a possibility if they consider phasing out there program. I feel the UK has experienced a significant decline in elephants holders in recent decades.
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I doubt Howletts would move their elephants anywhere especially to another breeding situation under the current administration (Howlett’s). I believe some of the cows are wild captives which further complicates the import process with the red tape.
 
The Horse Boy said:
It has been discussed earlier that elephants not returning to Oakland is reputed to be on the grounds of being allies with big name anti zoo organizations who are notoriously so against the entire notion of elephants in captivity. I would be absolutely flying high if they did return to housing them so that bay area residents can see these giants in front of their eyes if they wanted, and they have plenty of land for a new habitat. If they were unaffiliated with most animal rights cohorts, like nearly all the other AZA facilities who view them as enemies, then i'm sure they would have either brought in a young bachelor pair or trio or a new matrline.
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I was actually saying it more as confirmation rather than it was for speculation purposes. I know people personally who worked there and have for a while, and they’ve confirmed to me directly the zoo has zero intention right now in bringing them back. That’s not speculation when it’s a fact.
 
HawkAlot said:
On the topic of imports, I never see much chatter about Tutume at Granby. Given that Granby is planning on getting out of elephants, I'm curious to see if he'll eventually be shipped south. Same with the male at Parc Safari.

Ideally, it'd be lovely to see the females between the 2 facilities go to TES or something of the like, and the males sent to other facilities in the US for natural breeding opportunities.
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Currently there are some very nice plans in place for Canada's African elephants that would be welcomed by many. However there’s also some that wouldn’t. Only time will tell what will come of them. But people in charge are trying to make sure their’s as well as AZA’s best interest are kept in mind.
 
HawkAlot said:

I don't know which elephant is which in these videos, but at least one of the females shown at SDZSP has some noticeable mammary development going on. I would assume the last set born in 2018 are done nursing, and unless this is just retention in appearance from the past - it may be of note.
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The only females that appear to be lactating are Ndula and Umngani. Ndula's appear to be shrinking, while Umgani's appear to be the same, Khosi and Qinisa show no development so perhaps Moose managed to get the job done with Kami and Umngani.
ZCChip said:
I doubt Howletts would move their elephants anywhere especially to another breeding situation under the current administration (Howlett’s). I believe some of the cows are wild captives which further complicates the import process with the red tape.
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Actually none of Howletts current females and males are wild caught, they are all captive bred. Tammi, the eldest member of the herd was born in 1987, and the rest were born in 2005-2020.
 
E Maximus said:
Currently there are some very nice plans in place for Canada's African elephants that would be welcomed by many. However there’s also some that wouldn’t. Only time will tell what will come of them. But people in charge are trying to make sure their’s as well as AZA’s best interest are kept in mind.
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I'm glad Canada has plans in place for which facilities to relocate their Africans even if exact locations are undecided or not immediate. Does that mean ALS will be the only facility in Canada to house elephants down the road, of will the big herd there have to move down to the US?
 
E Maximus said:
Currently there are some very nice plans in place for Canada's African elephants that would be welcomed by many. However there’s also some that wouldn’t. Only time will tell what will come of them. But people in charge are trying to make sure their’s as well as AZA’s best interest are kept in mind.
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Thank you! I hope for the best. I mostly care that the males end up in breeding situations of some sort, and that the females go somewhere reputable such as TES. I sincerely hope we don't see a 2013 repeat with elephants being sent to PAWS, or males going to a sanctuary period for that matter.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
The only females that appear to be lactating are Ndula and Umngani. Ndula's appear to be shrinking, while Umgani's appear to be the same, Khosi and Qinisa show no development so perhaps Moose managed to get the job done with Kami and Umngani.
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Thank you for the heads up on who is who and all. I really hope it's just a case of some females being further along than others.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
This is incorrect, only his mother (Ndula) and younger half-brother (Zuli) live at the zoo, the other six cows are all unrelated to him. Swazi, the herd's matriarch, has been retired from breeding, but he can breed with other five, even Mikaya is now seven and at the start of breeding age.
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Where did you hear that Swazi was retired from breeding?
 
John Marchwick said:
Where did you hear that Swazi was retired from breeding?
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A docent told me this when I visited in October 2021. I am not 100% sure on why they decided to stop breeding her, but seeing how Swazi didn't become pregnant during Mabu's temporary return from 2016-2018, as Mabu had sired her two calves born in 2010 and 2012, makes me wonder if she might had a miscarriage or stillbirth that we never knew about around the time when Kaia and Zuli were born, or if they just decided not to breed her.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
A docent told me this when I visited in October 2021. I am not 100% sure on why they decided to stop breeding her, but seeing how Swazi didn't become pregnant during Mabu's temporary return from 2016-2018, as Mabu had sired her two calves born in 2010 and 2012, makes me wonder if she had a miscarriage or stillbirth that was never mentioned around the time when Kaia and Zuli were born.
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That was also before Vus Musi came back to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park a year later. The plan I heard when Vus Musi returned to the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, he was there to breed with every single female aside from his mother, Swazi was included as one of the females to breed with.
 
Not only was his move to Elephant Oddsey pertaining to the matriarch and his mom hating him, I think construction on modernizing Elephant Valley was a motive since it seems users said earlier that they didn't have extra space to accomodate him to be by himself away from his mother.
 
Nile Hippo Expert said:
A docent told me this when I visited in October 2021.
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I'd take it with reservations then - unfortunately there's no guarantee on accuracy of docent information. A couple of times now I've been told something by a zoo docent only to find they were wrong 10-15 minutes later into a zoo visit. The other information in this case seems to imply it may be accurate, but I'd put a question mark until further confirmation can be had.
 
The Horse Boy said:
Not only was his move to Elephant Oddsey pertaining to the matriarch and his mum hating him, I think construction on modernizing Elephant Valley was a motive since it seems users said earlier that they didn't have extra space to accomodate him to be by himself away from his mother.
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Where did you hear Vus Musi’s mother doesn’t like him?
 
ZCChip said:
Wait. There are still Africans in Canada? My impression for years that Toronto was the only holders and they sent their cows to PAWs?
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Yes, Granby has 1.2 Africans, bull Tutume (age 26) and cows Sarah (age 42) and Thandi (age 34), and Hemmingford Parc Safari has a bull (Jeannot) and a cow (Carole), both 42 years old. Vancouver and Edmonton both had a single African elephant (ironically both sharing space with a single Asian Elephant), until 2002 and 2007 respectively when they moved their respective African Elephants to the U.S.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
Actually none of Howletts current females and males are wild caught, they are all captive bred. Tammi, the eldest member of the herd was born in 1987, and the rest were born in 2005-2020.
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aren’t their original elephants wild caught? I will have to look at the database again. I was so sure the oldest were wild caught.

thank you for letting me know.
 
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