North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

[The Horse Boy]

I see your point, but elephants versus giraffes and rhinos are a little different in terms of transport practices. While certianly megafauna, elephants (especially bulls) outweigh them. I was moreso considering bulls in my thoughts as they would have to be factored into whatever kind of holder Honolulu would be. It is common practice to not fly mature bulls overseas unless absoloutely needed for welfare issues. This means that it would be difficult to swap out breeding bulls and/or bachelor males given that after the age of 20 or so they become exponentially more expensive and difficult to fly.
I don't think there will be excess Non-Reproductive cows floating around by the time Mari and Vaigai pass either, and if there were they almost certianly would not be sent to Honolulu when TES is a cheaper and more popular option.

While plausible, it feels just like an overly expensive endeavor that I'm unsure would he feasible long-term.

It is true that in some cases you can keep bulls in the appropriate zoo habitats shorter term than the cows and multigenerational herds. Bulls don't really stick to other members of the herd quite as tightly and permanently as the cows, and the bulls only join the matriarchal herds during mating season then move on. Which in a way makes managing bachelor herds more straightforward than breeding herds, let alone a herd of geriatric unrelated females who barely do much except eat and occasionally sway their bodies. Bulls can also be more introverted than the cows as they can be competitive with eachother. And last but not least, I think bachelor herd are in general not large in number in comparison to the matriarchal herds of cows and calves. This is mostly why we zoochatters can all concur that there needs to br as much american zoos with bachelor holdings as possible down the road.

 

[Jaxton]

I know the elephant breeding history, and elephant history in general, at pittsburgh zoo is so long that I'm a pretty skeptical they won't be part of the master plan. I think they just need to extend the outdoor space into the old giraffe/zebra yard and overhaul the barn with bull proof bollards, multiple stalls for each herd member, and put sand flooring in most of it. They then can bring in porven bulls like sdudla, callee, tendaji, or mabu, or bring in younger African bulls currently in bachelor settings. It might be costly but it's doable.

Perhaps a better conversation for the discussion and speculation thread.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

It is true that in some cases you can keep bulls in the appropriate zoo habitats shorter term than the cows and multigenerational herds. Bulls don't really stick to other members of the herd quite as tightly and permanently as the cows, and the bulls only join the matriarchal herds during mating season then move on. Which in a way makes managing bachelor herds more straightforward than breeding herds, let alone a herd of geriatric unrelated females who barely do much except eat and occasionally sway their bodies. Bulls can also be more introverted than the cows as they can be competitive with eachother. And last but not least, I think bachelor herd are in general not large in number in comparison to the matriarchal herds of cows and calves. This is mostly why we zoochatters can all concur that there needs to br as much american zoos with bachelor holdings as possible down the road.

I think you misinturpted my message or replying to me is off topic. I'm not sure how what I am saying about Honolulu's future as a holder relates to bachelor herd set up at all.

You have already been asked to refrain from repeating the same conversation points on this topic since it is adding nothing of value to the thread. We know you are passionate about bachelor facilities but please try make sure what you are posting is relevant.

 

[The Horse Boy]

I think you misinturpted my message or replying to me is off topic. I'm not sure how what I am saying about Honolulu's future as a holder relates to bachelor herd set up at all.

You have already been asked to refrain from repeating the same conversation points on this topic since it is adding nothing of value to the thread. We know you are passionate about bachelor facilities but please try make sure what you are posting is relevant.

I know but I was paraphrasing the future of bachelors topic in a more detailed way by comparing it to managing geriatric cows and multigenerational herds, and the general social structure of bulls jsyk.

And yes it do see your point that there might be some complicated logistics to transporting elephants including bulls in an out of Honolulu, it being the only Hawaiian holder. It may even be the only accredited Hawaiian zoo off the top of my head.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think it there could be difficult logistics in transporting any animal between Hawaii and all the 48 attached states overseas. I have just haven't read much of the Honolulu zoo transfers thag have occurred between states.

 

[Great Argus]

I may be wrong on this, but I swore I read something a while ago that said Honolulu will no longer keep elephants after their girls pass. Even if they didn't say anything I would be very surprised if they opted to continue holding them. It isn't a small task to move elephants across oceans, and given that Hololulu is the only Hawaiian holder of elephants it would be more of a hassle to move any individuals to and from the facility.

From a logistics standpoint it could go either way - they imported two black rhinos from San Diego Zoo Safari Park and two giraffes from Albuquerque Biopark, so logically elephants wouldn't be too different. Honolulu most likely could hold surplus elephants post Mari and Vaigai.

I would rule out Honolulu. The logistics and expense of getting large animals over there complicates their participation in many programs. Shipping surplus animals back and forth as needed would be a lot of extra expense and stress on the elephants, equally that's a long trip for any geriatric elephant. Also for a zoo that has been in and out of financial difficulties, not having elephants would likely ease their bottom line a bit.

 

[The Horse Boy]

D

I would rule out Honolulu. The logistics and expense of getting large animals over there complicates their participation in many programs. Shipping surplus animals back and forth as needed would be a lot of extra expense and stress on the elephants, equally that's a long trip for any geriatric elephant. Also for a zoo that has been in and out of financial difficulties, not having elephants would likely ease their bottom line a bit.

But doesn't Honolulu's current elephant facility meet modern AZA standards? I read some articles stating that it opened in the early 2010's more or less, and it can accomdate a male. They also expressed interest in a breeding group by then.

I think there will be a lesser need for zoos to strictly house geriatric elephants, cows in particular, as time passes. Most of the elder elephants leaving zoos are now often sent to the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee as they really specialize in that field of care. I'm surprised they're still against breeding elephants though, but I hope they fix that sooner or later as their anti zoo mindset seems to have died down since they got accredited by the aza not too long ago.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

Which in a way makes managing bachelor herds more straightforward than breeding herds, let alone a herd of geriatric unrelated females who barely do much except eat and occasionally sway their bodies.

This is incorrect, geriatric cows (and bulls too) can be extremely active, participate in enrichment and normal training activities, and they can actually be quite playful and sassy! Sure, they tend to be considered "more gentle" than younger elephants, but that does not stop them from being active.

I may be wrong on this, but I swore I read something a while ago that said Honolulu will no longer keep elephants after their girls pass. Even if they didn't say anything I would be very surprised if they opted to continue holding them. It isn't a small task to move elephants across oceans, and given that Hololulu is the only Hawaiian holder of elephants it would be more of a hassle to move any individuals to and from the facility.

D


But doesn't Honolulu's current elephant facility meet modern AZA standards? I read some articles stating that it opened in the early 2010's more or less, and it can accomdate a male. They also expressed interest in a breeding group by then.

I think there will be a lesser need for zoos to strictly house geriatric elephants, cows in particular, as time passes. Most of the elder elephants leaving zoos are now often sent to the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee as they really specialize in that field of care. I'm surprised they're still against breeding elephants though, but I hope they fix that sooner or later as their anti zoo mindset seems to have died down since they got accredited by the aza not too long ago.

I would rule out Honolulu. The logistics and expense of getting large animals over there complicates their participation in many programs. Shipping surplus animals back and forth as needed would be a lot of extra expense and stress on the elephants, equally that's a long trip for any geriatric elephant. Also for a zoo that has been in and out of financial difficulties, not having elephants would likely ease their bottom line a bit.

When I visited Honolulu Zoo in March 2023, multiple experienced and knowledgeable keepers told me that they will keep elephants until Mari and Vaigai pass, but after that Honolulu is not getting more elephants, due to the fact that they don't have the space for a larger breeding herd, as it is a smaller zoo, as well as the fact that shipping costs are extremely high, so as @Great Argus mentions, shipping animals like elephants back and forth is going to be a strong financial burden for the zoo, which isn't that rich, and keeping elephants itself is expensive too. I was also told that their exhibit can only hold the two girls (it is 1.5 acres), and to keep a breeding herd it would need to be much larger, but like I said, the zoo is a smaller zoo and will need to focus on other species, so that was most likely the decision for them not to acquire elephants, along with the heavy costs for keeping them they already have, and for these reasons I do support their decision.

Most of the elder elephants leaving zoos are now often sent to the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee as they really specialize in that field of care. I'm surprised they're still against breeding elephants though, but I hope they fix that sooner or later as their anti zoo mindset seems to have died down since they got accredited by the aza not too long ago.

I am 100% not surprised that TES is against breeding elephants as their goal has always been to have a nice "retirement facility" for aging elephants, and nowhere were there any intentions for breeding, and there are no plans to change that anytime soon, despite acquiring multiple bulls recently.

 

[The Horse Boy]

When I visited Honolulu Zoo in March 2023, multiple experienced and knowledgeable keepers told me that they will keep elephants until Mari and Vaigai pass, but after that Honolulu is not getting more elephants, due to the fact that they don't have the space for a larger breeding herd, as it is a smaller zoo, as well as the fact that shipping costs are extremely high, so as @Great Argus mentions, shipping animals like elephants back and forth is going to be a strong financial burden for the zoo, which isn't that rich, and keeping elephants itself is expensive too. I was also told that their exhibit can only hold the two girls (it is 1.5 acres), and to keep a breeding herd it would need to be much larger, but like I said, the zoo is a smaller zoo and will need to focus on other species, so that was most likely the decision for them not to acquire elephants, along with the heavy costs for keeping them they already have, and for these reasons I do support their decision

Well I guess that the US zoos that will still have Asians are Los Angeles, Denver, Smithsonian, Miami, Audubon, Dickerson Park (they should probably renovate the main yard and barn), St Louis, ABQ, Rosamond, Cincinnati, Columbus, OKC, Tulsa, Fort Worth, Houston, and San Antonio, like i listed this morning. Bronx, Busch Gardens and Little Rock might commit to Asians with expansive new facilities, but time will tell.

 

[Great Argus]

Well I guess that the US zoos that will still have Asians are Los Angeles, Denver, Smithsonian, Miami, Audubon, Dickerson Park (they should probably renovate the main yard and barn), St Louis, ABQ, Rosamond, Cincinnati, Columbus, OKC, Tulsa, Fort Worth, Houston, and San Antonio, like i listed this morning.

Also Oregon, which currently has a very good exhibit/facilities in place. I wouldn't hold my breath on LA.

Bronx, Busch Gardens and Little Rock might commit to Asians with expansive new facilities, but time will tell.

I don't get why people still think Bronx will stick with elephants when the zoo has openly stated they will not continue for over a decade now. Not having elephants would save Bronx a lot of money in a lot of areas.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Also Oregon, which currently has a very good exhibit/facilities in place. I wouldn't hold my breath on LA.

My apologies, I forgot to list Oregon for longterm us asian elephants zoos. What do you mean I wouldn't hold my breath on LA? They have a dedicated elephant habitat to my knowledge.

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

My apologies, I forgot to list it for longterm us asian elephants zoos. What do you mean I wouldn't hold my breath on LA? They have a dedicated Asian elephant habitat.

The lack of availability for a large breeding herd is definitely a major flaw. There are simply not enough animals currently available for them to have a breeding herd. Also, the zoo is city-run and it is impossible to doubt that they won't receive major criticism from activists if they get new elephants, as they already do receive quite a bit of it for their current elephants, so it doesn't seem extremely likely for them to get more and keep elephants long-term.

 

[The Horse Boy]

I think since Tina's very old as has been an ex circus elephant that has had a history of regular travel, it would be best for the zoo to wait out the future of the program until she passes. If they decide to go the breeding routez then that should be perfect timing for them to receive a herd split from white oak, Houston, ALS in Canada, possibly St Louis, or any European zoo with a successful breeding program of the species, to form a multigenerational group with Billy as a potential sire to future calves, and maybe they could bring a younger breeding bull as backup. By then I'm fairly sure they will not get harassed by activists, celebs, politicians, and other local anti zoo citizens quite as much.

Besides, most aza zoos, are non profit and not city, state, federally funded, other than la iirc. I don't think it'll make a big difference even if they move billy to TES or another aza zoo by the time they bring in more elephants. I think he's the main gripe they have against the elephant exhibit.

 

[Great Argus]

to form a multigenerational group with Billy as a potential sire to future calves, and maybe they could bring a younger breeding bull as backup. By then I'm fairly sure they will not get harassed by activists, celebs, politicians, and other local anti zoo citizens quite as much.

The activists will fight bringing in more elephants tooth and nail. When Tina passes LA will immediately be in the hot seat as Billy will then be alone - there will undoubtedly be a heavy push to send him elsewhere.

I think he's the main gripe they have against the elephant exhibit.

More accurately, he's their scapegoat to hammer on the zoo unnecessarily. The activists will still grumble and raise a fuss no matter what elephant the zoo has - it's agenda not animal welfare.

 

[The Horse Boy]

The activists will fight bringing in more elephants tooth and nail. When Tina passes LA will immediately be in the hot seat as Billy will then be alone - there will undoubtedly be a heavy push to send him elsewhere.



More accurately, he's their scapegoat to hammer on the zoo unnecessarily. The activists will still grumble and raise a fuss no matter what elephant the zoo has - it's agenda not animal welfare.

Ugh, I wish all the flack on Billy and the entire LA elephant program would get much less intense than it currently is. It aggravates me to see these guys condemn even top notch elephant exhibits such as houston, dallas, smithsonian, birmingham, reid park (la looks to be on par with these xample exhibits). The problem is they're just so strongly focused on these views that you can't talk them out of it.

Regardless of whatever the zoo decides about Billy's future, I do strongly hope LA will take action into bringing in younger herd someday. I'm sure other zoochatters can back me up

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

The activists will fight bringing in more elephants tooth and nail. When Tina passes LA will immediately be in the hot seat as Billy will then be alone - there will undoubtedly be a heavy push to send him elsewhere.



More accurately, he's their scapegoat to hammer on the zoo unnecessarily. The activists will still grumble and raise a fuss no matter what elephant the zoo has - it's agenda not animal welfare.

With the fact that they are already getting yelled at for the deaths of Jewel and Shaunzi when they were quite old, I am as sure that fire is hot that activists will do the same thing will happen once Tina passes and Billy is left alone (or the other way around). Heck, these activists are so bad that they even think that 61 years is PREMATURE for an elephant to die! L.A clearly gets absolutely no respect for their elephants at all, even when their exhibit is far from the worst in the country, and I pray to God that stops. They do not deserve this disrespect and it is completely unfair to the zoo and all visitors and supporters.

 

[Frankie_number_1_fan]

LA's entire situation is just muddy. While I am not privy to any plans of theirs, I find it exhausting and risky that there aren't new animals (whether they be cows or even a bull or two) onsite. Imo it should be a priority to be getting indivuduals there ASAP given Tina's age alone.
It would be a massive shame to lose another perfectly fertile bull to TES (the fact that fertile, healthy bulls are going there at all is infuriating) or worse, especially one that has never been given the oppertunity to breed.
My fingers are crossed we see some transports there this year.

 

[The Horse Boy]

LA's entire situation is just muddy. While I am not privy to any plans of theirs, I find it exhausting and risky that there aren't new animals (whether they be cows or even a bull or two) onsite. Imo it should be a priority to be getting indivuduals there ASAP given Tina's age alone.
It would be a massive shame to lose another perfectly fertile bull to TES (the fact that fertile, healthy bulls are going there at all is infuriating) or worse, especially one that has never been given the oppertunity to breed.
My fingers are crossed we see some transports there this year.

That could be one option if ALS does finally opt to send out a matriline to a US zoo in dire need of a breeding family group. I have also seen lots of ideas on here that Shanti's fam in Houston needs to be sent out soon with their ever-growing herd, so I suppose the could take them there as LA are Houston are both cities on Interstate 10. From wha i've read, White Oak also has loads of individual elephants and they could send out a herd split in the near future. Endangered ark should send out any of their younger individuals to an aza zoo in an LA situation.

 

[The Horse Boy]

Happy Saturday! I saw that the Pittsburgh Zoo got aza reaccredited in the fall and released a new master plan soon after. That definitely means they'll have to switch to protected contact with their elephants and dramatically renovate the barn to add sandy or heated rubber substrate and vertical steel posts that should withstand bulls, should they choose to add a breeding bull to impregnate the younger members of their current herd of 5 cows. I also think their outdoor exhibit needs to be extended to give the herd more space to roam. I have seen speculation on here that they might repurpose the old giraffe and zebra yard into another outdoor elephant unit.

 

[ZCChip]

I think since Tina's very old as has been an ex circus elephant that has had a history of regular travel, it would be best for the zoo to wait out the future of the program until she passes. If they decide to go the breeding routez then that should be perfect timing for them to receive a herd split from white oak, Houston, ALS in Canada, possibly St Louis, or any European zoo with a successful breeding program of the species, to form a multigenerational group with Billy as a potential sire to future calves, and maybe they could bring a younger breeding bull as backup. By then I'm fairly sure they will not get harassed by activists, celebs, politicians, and other local anti zoo citizens quite as much.

Besides, most aza zoos, are non profit and not city, state, federally funded, other than la iirc. I don't think it'll make a big difference even if they move billy to TES or another aza zoo by the time they bring in more elephants. I think he's the main gripe they have against the elephant exhibit.

Yes, Billy is the main gripe but his genetics are unrepresented in our pool so we desperately need him to breed a cow or two to produce offspring. Tina could go to a sanctuary and make room for breeding age, preferably a mother and daughter(s), to come in for Billy. But they may have to export from Australia or Europe since the supply of such is extremely limited at this point as there is no plans to release any cows. Unless African Lion Country would be willing export a few.

 

[The Horse Boy]

It looks like a great and positive interaction. Hopefully he will get the job done and he will be there in a long while. Even though he is a son of Jack.

It gladdens me to see that Mabu may no longer be an option for breeding bulls at Tucson. I do feel he should go to another zoo in a 2 or so years after reimpregnating the two cows there. Dallas (they'd most likely have to move tendaji out first as i believe they are able to hold only 1 mature bull at max), omaha, pittsburgh, north carolina, zootampa, and Indianapolis would all be great choices for him. Batir, Zahara, and the Pittsburgh and Tampa girls need to be impregnated by a prolific bull asap, and mabu can gladly fix that.