The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
To the activists point of view, every elephant enclosure is the worst other than the TES and PAWS sanctuaries. And if they send Billy to PAWS, they would lose their AZA-Accreditation status.
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North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter The Horse Boy
- Start date
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Elephants of Asia is more than adequate to bring in new cows and likely even a new bull in addition to their current two. It would be the smartest possible decision for the zoo to bring in a few cows from White Oak (which feels like the most plausible option of currently AZA animals) and attempt to breed him naturally. I genuinely think the activists would lose their leg to stand on if Billy (and Tina) entered a more "natural" herd structure and it would almost if not entirely eliminate any potential legal barrings against the facility.
That being said, Billy is likely never going to leave the zoo unless its to a sanctuary. Using him for AI in any capacity would be a nightmare ("They're collecting from him against his will"), so his best shot at being utilized to the population is via natural breeding. If he's unsuccessful, then the zoo could either keep him onsite or just give in and ship him off to TES.
They just need to do it... no more delaying! AR is never in control!
In a sense, yes. However the entire premise of the AR targeting the zoo is they do not want elephants there period end of question. Bringing in more would draw pure fury from the activists. Remember Fresno was targeted to force shipping out their elephants as well, which only ended when they weren't getting the support they needed. It's going to come down to whether the city has had enough - which is also exactly why LA is the target, they can't exert the same kind of pressure on Fresno or San Diego.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Always infuriates me when these people naysay places that are good homes for animals including elephants.
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The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
As Frankie_number_1_fan said, LA could definitely take a white oak herd split for sure, tho they're on opposite sides of the country. Houston could also ship out either Shanti or Tess' matriline to LA because I think they're seemingly reaching maximum capacity with the currently large number of cows. I also read on the elephant database that the Endangered ARK Foundation in Oklahoma has a good amount of younger individuals that should get transferred to AZA zoos soon, and LA would be one the perfect locations. ARK transferred their young bull hugo to Dickerson Park in 2019 with no apparent issue (which implies that they will turn into a bachelor facility in the future with a much older bull present alongside their two geriatric cows. They should modernize the outdoor yards and barn for that according to the pics i've seen) so i don't see why sending any younger elephant there to Los Angeles should be a hassle.
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Well, they are against any animal in captivity, especially elephants, dogs, horses. They depend on bleeding hearts for action and money. They do not understand that the best enrichment for the elephants is a herd setting. Not acres and acres of space. Wild animals have to travel long distances to find food, water, and mates. In captivity, they really do not need to do that, but that comes with obesity which has to be managed.
Those has been discussed many times in this thread, including ALS in Canada. I do not know what the issue is with the Endangered ARK Foundation. This facility is connected with the Carson circus, so that is possible why they are reluctant to let their elephants go. They lease their elephants out, as well travel with elephants to perform under a tent and use the babies to draw crowds. They eventually have no use for a mature bull due to their use of full contact. They do have an unrelated bull to the young cows, so the cows are possibly pregnant. Whimpy is a very old cow now so probably done having calves.
Egos are involved as well, politics, people with heads that are too big for their hats.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I think I read articles saying that facility was rightfully slammed by animal rights groups over the years since its affiliated with a circus and most likely uses abusive and potentially dangerous training methods with their elephants that the AZA now forbids. I don't approve of wild animals in circuses, so that place must close down. Then any of the older elephants could go to TES, whilst any younger ones could go to these AZA zoos listed:
- Los Angeles
- Audubon
- Miami
- San Antonio
- Dickerson Park
- Albuquerque
- Denver
- Tulsa
- Bronx
- Little Rock
- Busch Gardens
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I agree circuses should be shut down at least with animals. It is too much stress on them. I enjoy animal competitions and I could see stress does wear them out. Imagine being on the road 8-10 months a year.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Why I much prefer certified zoos over circuses is because:
- The animals aren't transported from place to place worldwide not nearly as often. They're only moved to other facilities for breeding recommendations or retiring after a certain number of years instead of daily weekly or monthly.
- Zoos no longer have their animals perform tricks solely intended to entertain the public, which are generally viewed as abominable by today's standards.
- These days zoos design their enclosures and set up enrichment programs to encourage the animal's natural behaviors and instincts, essentially have the wild animals just be who they are as a species.
- Modern zoos have been reinvented as places to protect and restore endangered species and teach guests about wildlife, their native habitats and conservation. People who work in zoos genuinely love their animals, and i've always considered them to be good honest people, willing to answer any relevant questions.
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If the zoo AND AZA choose non-engagement of the AR extremist views over debunking their myths and misconstruction of the facts .... the end game will be the irrationale of a move to a "sanctuary" (Gosh how I genuinely hate that word bc it is one in public use for part for the notion protected area .... where this is clearly a retirement home for abused and maltreated pets ...) of a healthy bull with enormuous reproductive potential (and presently unrepresented for the AZA SSP population).
I re-iterate it is high time that AZA engage its current membership to assist in solving the LA Zoo Billy issue (and darn it ... is so damn easy to do so: 1) provide some (2-3) suitable 8-12 year old cows from the breeding herds that need to emigrate from their current herd with their matriarchal dam (and there is/are example(s) of multiple dam herds within the same zoo that under normal conditions would break up into their respective family units in nature / and where European zoos do send off a matriline elsewhere now routinely...)!
Well this is just my take on conservation zoo - public interest - vs AR - activist agenda / their own agenda -. Per Normal I would welcome NGO's and public interest groups ..., but I have a hard time with AR-like organisations that have very little concept of the Natural World, real grass roots conservation action and ambassadorships nor hold much in scientific rationale, data nor adequate and conscientiuous use of true facts and peer-reviewed scientific research.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I had thoughts regarding the future of the elephant program at the Montgomery zoo in Alabama. I have not been there in person, but based on pictures, their outdoor enclosure looks minute and very ugly without much natural enriching features that most newer ones have. They should close down the current exhibit then send the cow trio including the young daugther Makena to reputable facilities with ,or capable of keeping, well-sized matriarchal groups and bulls who could breed her. I know they are not AZA affiliated, but it's well worth the effort. They could be shipped to these zoos listed-
- Atlanta (Titan could breed with Makena)
- Brookfield
- Cheyenne Mountain
- Cleveland Metroparks
- Dallas
- Fresno
- Indianapolis
- Jacksonville
- Kansas City
- Maryland
- Memphis (if they decide to do breeding herds with their upcoming new exhibit plan)
- North Carolina
- Pittsburgh
- Toledo
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
The title of this thread highlights both african and asians so that people can discuss current situations over all North American Elephants.
Mostly because it's all speculation and much of it is likely to never happen anyway. Two extensive speculation threads just is twice the confusion in addition to the actual news threads.
To clarify, I am not trying to be combative.
How does another thread create more confusion if they are labeled as speculation threads?
There has been discussion in the past about confusion with the elephant spec thread vs the actual news threads - the speculation thread is almost always forefront of any of the actual news threads and if you're not mindful it can be confusing. There has been some discussion too as to whether the speculation threads are necessary to begin with; though they were split because the news was becoming near impossible to tell from the speculation unless you were keeping up to date with the thread.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
I think it would be a wise idea to split up the discussions for African Elephants and Asian Elephants from each other.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Most of the conversations tie in to each other anyway, it would be counterproductive to have and manage two completely separate threads.