North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter The Horse Boy
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Having worked with both, in my experience, the only difference I have noticed is that Asian herds tend to form strict bonds along maternal lines making it much more difficult to house multiple different matrilines. They don't seem to have a true matriarchal hierarchy outside of said family group. An example is Cow A's family group is unrelated to Cow B's family group and over time they will "split" and form their own herds often clashing with each other as the lead cow from each group wants to be in charge and will not yield to the other. Whereas in Africans there seems to be a distinct "dominant" cow or true matriarch regardless of bloodline and most cows will respect that and let said cow take charge. That being said, it just makes it more difficult to breed from multiple different matrilines with Asians as you have to have the space and a plan to run multiple herds should there be a split. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense seeing as Asian elephants typically live in smaller fragmented family groups of more closely related members in their native ranges compared to African Elephant's large and more tight-knit groupings.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
That definitely is one of the reasons why Houston needs to send either Tess's or Shanti's family to another asian facility capable of holding a multigenerational group asap as discussed before. Idk how many adult elephants they can really hold max but I'm sure they're reaching the limit atp cow and calf-wise. I think now Tess's would be better nominees: Shanti just gave birth to a new calf and the new bull from Denver Chuck has a breeding recommendation with her daughter Joy this year afaik.
I know Thai is the natural father of the new calf Kirby. But he's about 60, so I have a hunch Chuck came to possibly take over as the breeding bull once Thailand passes, which could be any day now.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
The two Houston matrilines are still relatively well integrated afaik, so there's very little reason to send either out at the moment.
While in theory either matriline could be moved, Tess' line is unquestionably more valuable and I would be very surprised if they opted to send them out. Tess is a wildborn animal and her calves are all sired by a wildborn bull, she has two daughters and a granddaughter already onsite. Houston would likely want to retain the more valuable group.
Houston has also given zero indication that they plan to seperate or send out any of their animals, so I am doubtful they will for at least a few more years. Breeding Joy at her natal facility surrounded by a large herd is the smartest and most ideal move for both her and a hypothetical calf.
As for capacity, while Houston is certianly getting up there, they definitely have the room for a few more calves, especially considering the cows often share stalls at night and during warm weather (as is most common there) have access to the yards all night as well. A herd split is inevitable, but not nessecary just yet, nor do I think it is in the cards anytime soon.
The Horse Boy
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That's the way captive elephant births should look like: surrounded by a close family rather then alone or with elephants that do not know eachother well, and Houston's already done a good job with that. I remember you saying the earliest they can move Shanti's family is 2028. I have a strong feeling by then that San Antonio will open the new elephant habitat they've been emphatic about in news articles and social media posts. As much as I'd personally love for them to go to Los Angeles, I think San Antonio would be a more convenient pick bc it's about 3 hours west of Houston on the Interstate 10 highway (making it the next metropolis that direction). It logistically makes more sense to me.
From looking at the cow barn through the public viewing glass, it has about 4 to 5 stalls, so I guess the maximum adult cow number would be 4-5. They're definitely cutting it close with the 4 cows currently on site, which is why i still think a herd split is necessary soon even if not planned yet. According to the Google pictures I saw of the nextdoor bull barn, it has 4 stalls so I presume the same number max for males. The general trend for elephant facilities located in the Sun Belt region appears to be smaller barns and the provisions for 24/7 access to the outdoor yards because of more generally warmer hotter climates in comparison to the zoos with bigger barns found in Northern and Midwest states with colder climates.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
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Houston has 5 stalls in each barn (though I believe only 4 in the bull barn can house the bulls overnight). Between the regularly warm nights allowing access to the outdoor yard and the cows/calves sharing stalls they arguably could have three or so additional animals than what they have now. Assuming they breed Joy next year, and perhaps Tupelo and Tess as well, they would have enough space for a few more births until a herd split or expansion (which Houston does have planned in their masterplan) would be needed. They're getting up there, but it won't be a problem for a little while yet.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I think most places with 3 to 5 stalls and capacity of 3-5 individuals are more suitable for bachelor groups (except Denver as they can hold up to 8 males and currently have 6). That applies to Birmingham Tyler Audubon, and much of the European bachelor zoos. All the EU ones typically hold 2 3 to 4 males. Milwaukee has 5 overnight holding stalls and that number is the maximum for individual elephants, so I conclude they will transition into a bull group place after the geriatric cow trio each about the same age pass. Cheyenne Mountain has about 4 overnight stalls, so I think they're more apt for bachelors after all their "Golden Girls" pass or move to TES.
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This I understand and agree with. There are already so many issues in the United States sub-forum with posting in the thread that corresponds to the current year (I myself have been guilty of this) so a second speculation thread would probably create similar confusion. That being said, there is already a lot of confusion in the sole speculation thread because it hosts discussion of two different topics. Personally, I would say confusion over what is being discussed is a bigger issue than confusion over which thread should be used, but that is just a matter of my own opinion.
Thank you @Great Argus for the explanation.
Most of the conversations in this thread and the preceeding one largely consist of people expressing dissaproval of the management of the elephant populations (probably rightfully so) and sharing what they think should be done instead. Being that Asian elephants and African bush elephants are different species and are accordingly managed separately, ideas about the Asian elephant population (e.g. moving cows to Los Angeles to breed with their male) are completely irrelevent to conversation about the African elephant population (e.g. breeding success in Omaha). There may be similarities between the discussions but they are ultimately separate and should be completely distinct.
I fail to see how it would be "counterproductive" to have and manage two separate threads. These threads do not ever need to be updated so management is negligible. If anything, it is confusing to lump the discussions into the same thread.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I see how it can be confusing to switch topics so quickly on the thread, and I agree that multiple completly different discussions a day has gotten to be a lot (It was not like this in the past, usually more than a day would pass before a new discussion would spring up on the old thread). However most people active on the thread are very familiar with the US population of both species and so it's not confusing to switch between them.
I say it would be counterproductive because we already struggle with keeping speculation out of the main thread and struggle to stay on topic on this thread even when it is about both species. Trying to have two completly seperate threads is asking for a ton of irrelevant messages that either need moved or deleted and removes a space to talk about management of both species (The conversation you mentioned did bring up the African population multiple times). This thread can be a lot, but I think splitting it would cause more issues than it's worth.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
It's true that Omaha has 5 young cows w 5 calves on the ground right now. But I think they should act soon to bring in a new bull to keep their good breeding legacy rocking on as callee left for sedgwick two years ago now. Pontential candidates would be-
- Mabu from Fresno
- Tendaji from Dallas
- Sdudla from Tampa
- Jabali from Disney
- Samson from Maryland
- Any of Mabu's sons currently in bachelor herds at Birmingham, Caldwell, and Elephant Odyssey.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Omaha does not have a bull right now because they are almost/at capacity. I believe they are raising funds to expand, so I imagine they'll be waiting a few more years before having another group of calves.
The Horse Boy
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Is 10 the maximum number of elephants they can hold total counting offspring?
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I'm not 100% on what their maximum holding is, but they certianly do not have enough space for an additional 5 elephants. I'm unsure when they plan to expand, but nevertheless they're likely going to aim for a larger birth interval between the two cohorts.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
I feel that exhibit is too constrained to expand the outdoor space if that's what you say they're fundraising for. Especially for the management of both breeding herds and bachelors in separate enclosures the way houston does. The barn is a lot larger than most in the country I believe being about 30000 sq ft.
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Spike
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Why would they need to worry about bachelors? At most they would have one adult bull for breeding as I can’t see the AZA wanting Omaha to use up valuable space for Sonny and Mopani as they would be required to have an entirely different enclosures then the females when they grow up.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think expanding the outdoor space for bachelors seems unnecessary. Most african facilities in the us holding breeding herds usually can manage up to 1 adult bull max if I'm not mistaken- however, they can sometimes flexibly accommodate 1 or 2 site born adolescent bulls like Sedgwick and Disney. Once Sonny and Mopani hit their bachelor phases, they could can go to Birmingham San Diego Atlanta and Caldwell or they can go to modern facilities with geriatrics like Rodger Williams Cheyenne Mountain Maryland Milwaukee Jacksonville or possibly Memphis when the new one opens.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Unless all the animals in the geriatric holding facilities drop dead within the next 8ish years (very unlikely), they'll be going to an existing bachelor facility. Unless they move any of Mabu's sons out at Cadwell or Birmingham, San Diego is probably the most likely option.
The Horse Boy
Well-Known Member
How many can each 3 existing bachelor facilities hold max?
I'm sure birmingham amd tyler with send out one of the their bachelors to breeding facilities in the next year or so.
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Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
I believe Cadwell and Birmingham are either at capacity or could only bring in one more bull, and that's being generous. Anyone feel free to correct me but I couldve sworn I read that San Diego will be similar to Denver in their capacity of 7-8 bulls. With them sending Sheba out this year and Musi being such a valuable animal they almost doubtlessly will be the facility to turn for bachelor holding.
As for Cadwell and Birmingham sending out any of the bulls anytime soon, I doubt it. Their young boys are not exactly desirable in the least due to their well-represented father, and this value will only decrease if the Safari Park girls are pregnant like many of us suspect. Frankly, I see little reason to send them out when there are bulls like Titian, Musi, Kedar and Samson or even a bull already breeding like Tendaji who would be a stonger candidates for any facility looking for a new bull. Mabu's boys will likely not see the breeding scene for a while now.